Aryan Nations a better heritage check for "birthers"

I’ve been trying to ignore the “birthers,” but earlier blog posts by Doug Gibson and Charles Trentelman got me thinking about why the mouth-breathers seem so especially despicable.

Here it is: The birthers raving at congressional hearings and elsewhere remind me of the blue-shirted Aryan Nations morons who staged white supremacy marches on American streets.

The person tumbling from a cliff will grasp for any outcrop, branch or twig. Only the crazy will also keep processing pet conspiracy theories all the way down. While America faces many major problems, the “birthers” seem to care only about the crib location of the guy whose job is to try to break our fall.

The ridiculous distraction fomented by the “birthers” would be merely irritating and pathetic, if not for the dark associations underlined by their words and deeds. I’m talking about the xenophobic, racist, paranoid mindset that never dies in some crevices of our society.

Their cries of defending the Constitution for “real Americans” have no practical standing, for starters. Barack Obama is president, and their efforts to get him ousted as a “false” American will fail. They don’t really even care where the president was born. The underlying truth is, they hate what Obama represents: Multiculturalism, biracialism, diversity, liberalism and the Democratic Party. They’re clutching the desparate twig of a supposed birthplace coverup conspiracy as they help pull sane conservatives with them to the bottom.

Their rhetoric reminds me of the spoutings of the Aryan Nations, the Ku Klux Klan, the neo-Nazi skinheads. Today’s anti-immigrant hysteria has helped fuel a resurgence of such groups and provides a nesting place for the birthers’ ravings. They detest Obama’s parentage of a black African Muslim father and give no credence to the reality that his white Christian mother and grandmother raised him. To them, he’s “not one of us,” not of white Christian identity, and therefore he is “one of them.”

Note this phrase proselytized by David Lane, one of the murderous leaders of The Order, an infamous neo-Nazi scourge in the 1980s: “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.”

The Anti-Defamation League tracks various neo-Nazi and extremist groups that remain active or are even resurging. The ADL highlights the “white survivalism” views of the Aryan Nations: “God’s creation of Adam marked … the placing of the White Race upon this earth. Not all races descend from Adam. Adam is the father of the White Race only … We believe that the true, literal children of the Bible are the twelve tribes of Israel, now scattered throughout the world and now known as the Anglo-Saxon, Germanic, Teutonic, Scandinavian, Celtic peoples.” The Aryan Nations also declared that non-Aryans are not merely inferior but must be destroyed: “We believe that there are literal children of Satan in the world today. These children are the descendants of Cain, who was a result of Eve’s original sin, her physical seduction by Satan. We know that because of this sin there is a battle and a natural enmity between the children of Satan and the children of The Most High God. … This is attested by Scripture and all secular history.”

The birthers have only as much traction as masters of fear, intolerance and ignorance can provide.

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55 Responses to Aryan Nations a better heritage check for "birthers"

  1. Mike says:

    Your article is crap

    Do you research anyone or thing that is behind the so-called ‘birther’ movement?
    Or do you just watch the latest nonsense from MSNBC, ala Chrissy-pooh Mathews?

    Philip Berg is the attorney who started the whole thing
    He’s a Democrat who supported Hillary Clinton
    The ‘movement’ of people wanting a proper birth certificate is a constitutional question, not a baseless assertion.

    The birth notice Hawaii and Obama has provided is a fake and a forgery, that has been proven as well.

    You seem to just make alot of noise and say nothing bub.

    Do you care if the government has allowed a usurper to take over power in the US? is the website
    Stop being a stooge for elites


  2. ctrentelman says:

    oh brother, philip berg again — is mike the same guy who was emailing me about this a bit ago?

    actually, your comparison to brown shirts and so on is not that far off — if you watch the video linked to the post by Doug, at the end you can hear some people off to the side shouting the congressman down and demanding that the entire audience recite the Plege of Allegience.

    That is a very scary moment for anyone who has read Alexander Solzynetsyn (spelling?) writing of patriotic applaus given at events while party officials watched and woe betide the first person to stop clapping and, thus, display inadequate patriotic ferver.

    Orwell, in 1984 and several other books, described the patriotic “hates,” where everyone was supposed to shout out their hate of the unpatriotic and, again, woe betide the person who did not join in.

    Recently as 2002 Bill O’Reilley and, later on, our own Sen. Robert Bennett, were implying in so many words that you were unpatriotic if you dared oppose the president’s policies.

    Patriotism, coupled with wildly unfounded stereotypes and accusations, is the rock bottom basis of political takeovers by the few who want to shout down the many.

    Sadly, too often, it works.

  3. laytonian says:

    Wow, someone hates “elites”. Damn. I guess if the word “intellectuals” wasn’t so hard to spell, he’d hate them, too.

    Mike, **nothing** has been proven to be a fake or a forgery. In fact, the State of Hawaii restated just today, that the Certificate of Life Birth released last year IS the legal birth certificate.

    Mike, do you want me to be able to go down to Vital Statistics and get YOUR birth certificate? The original copy? Why not? It’d be great fun to have yours, because I could ID theft you.

    By the way, Mike, I DO have a certified copy of my own Ogden City/Weber County birth certificate, which my parents obtained in 1952 so that they could prove I was old enough to enter first grade.

    Guess what, Mike! It has NO MORE INFORMATION on it, than Barack Obama’s “Certificate of Live Birth”. That’s right, Mike. My own birth certificate lists only my parents’ names, the city, the county, the state, my name and my date of birth.

    What it DOES NOT HAVE, Mike, is any of the info you birfers call “long form”. My Ogden-Weber birth certificate does NOT have the doctor’s name, the name of the hospital, my birth weight, my birth order, any other births by my mother, my parents’ occupations, or any of that other info.

    That same piece of paper, a bit flimsy now and with its receding embossed stamp by some Ogden-Weber official, was also used by me to obtain my passport.

    What Barack Obama has willingly shown to the US populace, is the VERY same LEGAL thing that I would show, if asked for my “Certificate of Birth”.

    Oh, Mike. I do have something else. It’s a certificate from the hospital, a little souvenir they gave my mother. It has all of that “long form” information, is NOT a legal document (which is why my parents had to get my legal birth certificate in 1952), and is in my baby book.

    You birfers, Mike, aren’t confusing the two things, are you?
    You couldn’t be, couldn’t you?
    No one could possibly do THAT, could they?

    Mike, I hate to go on so long about this, with all of these facts and things that bother birthers, but there’s something else I have to mention: yesterday’s Congressional vote, 378-0, that honored the State of Hawaii upon its 50th Anniversary of Statehood and which also stated its honor of being the birthplace of the current President of the United States. 55 congressmen were not there for the vote (but only 20 of them were Republicans).

    We liberals, moderates, and Democrats couldn’t PAY for better entertainment and degradation of the right-wing cause in the United States. The Republicans are obviously embarrassed about this, and even better, all of you who spout this hatred, are identifying yourselves in public.

  4. Mark Shenefelt says:

    That Obamacrimes Web site is really impressive, Mike. Good luck with that plea for $75 million in donations to buy signs protesting the great usurper.

    How fanatic are the birther leaders? On the aforementioned site, Berg actually brags that he used the eulogy at his own brother’s funeral to rant about Obama. When I die, I’m confident my brothers won’t use my funeral as a political prop.

  5. Doug Gibson says:

    OK, I don’t think, now, that the “birthers” are close to being the equivalent of the Aryan Nations. They are very foolish, even more than the “Bush lost Ohio” crowd in 2005. There is a real concern that they are trying to seep into the mainstream of the GOP.

    Earlier this decade most mainstream Democrats stayed away from the anti-American snarl-fests organized by International Answer and that was smart (Rocky Anderson, unfortunately, was an exception).

    Fifty years ago William F. Buckley managed to expel the John Birchers from mainstream conservatism. We need an effort like that today with birthers who persist with this ugliness..

  6. Mike says:

    I don’t hate anyone or thing
    Rest assured, the people that employ me know I’m who I say I am
    You people give too much credit to our Gov.
    Congress is largely a ceremonial tool and nothing more
    Lemmingish lap dogs for the Fed, more or less, they don’t even read critical legislation

    You’re ready to fire off with the labels and the wide-brush stroked caricatures of what I might be about, Bill O’Reilly etc lol
    There’s a ton of facts, many of which have yet to surface, rest assured
    I’m a political atheist, Obama stinks like Bush and you people act like the birth certif is a big deal, when it’s largely a diversion to fluff up ‘race’ and demonize the ‘right’
    I saw the reaction of those people in that city council meeting where Obama’s certif was discussed. They seemed quite serious and thoughtful about their concerns

    Aryan Nations? It’s this kind of bellicose crap being spewed that is making a serious though very technical issue a hideous one

    You’re right, nothing has been ‘proven’
    Not by me or Chrissy-pooh or you peeps

    What the hell is a ‘certificate of live birth’?
    Why does Barry’s grandma talk about him being born there in Kenya?
    Why did African newspapers have headlines about Obama returning to the land of his birth? This article was scrubbed.
    Used to say:
    \For Ghana, Obama’s visit will be a celebration of another milestone in African history as it hosts the first-ever African-American President on this presidential visit to the continent of his birth.\
    He had to be a citizen of Bangladesh to be schooled as a Muslim.
    You cannot have dual citizenship in Bangladesh.
    When did Barry Soetero become Barack Hussein Obama?
    He of the 57 state primary season

  7. someguy says:

    The truly wise will search for answers to questions until their curiosity is satisfied. Call me a “birther” or whatever you like, but I do not believe the evidence confirming Obama’s right to the Presidency has satisfied my curiosity.

    Take the hypothetical, ‘Obama is not a naturalized citizen and he is in fact a usurper’. Does it make you unpatriotic if you fail to do your duty as an American Citizen to prevent his presidency? YES. I believe “birthers” are performing their duty as American Citizens to confirm his right to the presidency and will “go away” when Obama gives us his long form birth certificate. If he does not, then they will get louder. The only reason one hides this kind of information is because they have something to hide. I wonder what it is he is so afraid of that he refuses to present this documentation.

    -Reluctant Birther

  8. Cathy says:

    As it has been pointed out, the arguments in this debate keep shifting. First it’s the birth certificate. Then someone else comes along and says naw forget about that, it’s really his adoptive father. Then someone else says naw, it’s because of his biological father.

    Really just waiting for someone to say it’s actually because his mother dresses him funny. I think the birthers need to just be honest with themselves… this is a pinata swing in the dark at a president they wish had not gotten into office for any host of reasons they don’t want to own up to. I have many pro-life friends who, instead of just saying they don’t like the way he legislates on that issue, they just jump on whatever grabs them in the moment. A sane, rational person can express what their grievances and differences of opinion are… without grasping at straws and looking for conspiracy theories.

  9. JT says:


    I don’t wish to seem combative here, but the WP crowd is a minority in this country. It’s a favorite red herring waved about by the Left in order to scare people. It gets people who might start questioning the party line to shut up and get back into line.

    Please understand that I do not dismiss them as a potential threat, but I put them in the same category as the Black Panthers and various extremist Muslim groups. Fringe, and easily monitored and countered.

    I can produce my birth certificate in five minutes. It was issued by the Department Of Defense and the State Department. I fail to understand why Obama can not do the same.

    I can get you my college transcripts in a few days. I fail to see why Obama has a problem with releasing his.

    I can provide you with my entire work history in a day. Why can’t Obama?

    My health records and criminal record (none) are easily accessed. Why won’t Obama release his?

    Tax records? If I was placed in a position of trust, I’d have no problem letting people review mine. What is Obama’s problem?

    Did you notice that my birth certificate was issued by The Department of Defense and The State Department? It means I was born overseas, and as such (even though I am a citizen by birth) am ineligible to serve as President.

    Why doesn’t Obama and everyone else do the honorable thing and obey the Constitution?

  10. stumblefall says:

    I just have one question: does the author care whether or not Obama was actually born within the United States? All that vitriolic rhetoric seems to mask one thing: a claim that the “birthers” don’t really care if Obama is legitimate, despite the fact that the author doesn’t really care if he isn’t. Perhaps it is possible that there are true conservatives that are not racists, and would vote for a candidate like Walter Williams or Star Parker in a heartbeat, not despite the fact that they are black, but because they represent what we believe, and we really don’t care about “multiculturalism, biracialism, diversity”. But yes, we do care about liberalism, and socialism, and completing undermining and destroying the Constitution, and we expect it to be followed, even if it isn’t convenient.

  11. Cathy says:

    Obama has produced the same birth certificate that you or I would be able to produce. He was born in Hawaii, the cert says so, the newspapers listed his birth in the local statistics… what more do you want?

    Want to talk about upholding the constitution even when we don’t like it? OK here it is: the 14th amendment grants Obama citizenship as a person born in the US, regardless of what nationalities his mother, father, and adoptive father were/are. End of story.

  12. Mark Shenefelt says:

    I understand the reasons for the constitutional provision, to ensure that a dad-gummed foreigner could not become president. The founders of our nation were understandably leery of some Euro trying to gain power here. They’d seen too much of the foreign-monarchy rulership scenarious in Europe.

    I also think it is unfortunate today that an American born overseas to American parents should be denied the opportunity to run for president. Interestingly, people such as Sen. Orrin Hatch have talked about possibly relaxing the citizenship-presidency prohibitions, perhaps to allow those such as Hatch’s buddy, California Gov. Arnold Schwartzenegger, to run for president. Hmm, haven’t heard Hatch talking about that much lately.

    As for the The Aryan Nations image, it may seem exaggerated. But the point is, the underlying thinking is the same.

  13. Random says:

    I’m not into conspiracies, but I do expect our Constitution and laws be obeyed by everyone, including Obama. He has not produced a legitimate birth certificate and therefore has not proven he is a natural born citizen or eligible to be sit in the White House. To ask that the Constitution be followed is not being a nut, it’s called being a citizen. To ridicule people for asking a legitimate question and expecting a truthful answer with proof says much more about your state of mind than mine.

    This issue is not going to go away no matter how much \fun\ you make of people asking this simple basic question, \Where is the birth certificate?\

  14. Cathy says:

    The birth certificate has been on the internet for some time. Hawaii has once again ascertained that it is valid.

    It’s time for you to accept the constitution now and upload what it says about people born on US soil being citizens.

  15. Cathy says:

    upHOLD . not upLOAD. LOL

  16. Michael Trujillo says:

    What the %!@* is a long form birth certificate. I don’t have one and, until the birthers brought it up, I’d never heard of one. What the hell is it supposed to be?

    As I said on another S.E. blog, IF you people are going to push this thing, then I expect the same scrutiny to be applied to all the past Presidents. Go back and find their “original” birth certificates. If there is no evidence that one of them was born in the U.S., then we must nullify any laws that President signed and re-legislate them. How do we know that LBJ was really born in Stonewall, TX? Maybe he was really born across the border in Mexico. Let’s see the proof.

    That’s only fair, if you all are really concerned about insuring that the Constitution is followed. No one bothered to check these things with it was a white guy running.

  17. laytonian says:

    JT says: ” Ican produce my birth certificate in five minutes. It was issued by the Department Of Defense and the State Department. I fail to understand why Obama can not do the same.”

    HE DID!

    Mike asks: “What the hell is a ‘certificate of live birth’?


    Michael asks: “What the %!@* is a long form birth certificate?”

    IT’S A FORMAT USED BY MILITARY BASES AND SOME STATES (note the examples shown by Berg and Corsi, and hinted at by JP above). It closely resembles the format of my husband’s Nebraska birth certificate.

    MY Weber-Utah birth certificate looks more like Obama’s. My husband’s Nebraska birth certificate looks more like the military version.

    Both my husband and I used those certified birth certificates to get our passports. It proved we were citizens.

    I notice that no one here is questioning MY birth certificate (that looks like Obama’s).

    This OBVIOUSLY is nothing more than thinly-veiled racism, and the white sheets and pointy hats are gradually coming off.

    I am proud to uphold the Constitution of the United States, our duly-elected President, and pray that our country remains safe from what I am beginning to consider as terroristic threats. Like I’ve said before, I’m thrilled that the internet allows these people to self-expose.

  18. laytonian says:

    SOMEGUY, you say consider the hypothetical ” ‘Obama is not a naturalized citizen and he is in fact a usurper’.”

    Well, golly gee. You’re right! Obama is NOT a “naturalized citizen”.

    Do you even know the difference between a “natural-born” and a “naturalized” citizen? “Naturalized” is someone who becomes a citizen of the US **after** having come here as a citizen of another country.

    1 – Obama has a legal birth certificate certified by the State of Hawaii.
    2 – That birth certificate is acceptable proof to the US State Department of his citizenship.
    3 – You say Obama is not a “naturalized citizen”
    4 – Since the State of Hawaii and the US State Department DO say that he is a citizen…..the only other citizenship option is “natural-born”.

    Thank you, someguy!

    NOW, tell me how *I* am a usurper, because all I can produce is an Ogden-Weber birth certificate containing ONLY the information that’s on Obama’s birth certificate.

    Do you want me deported, because I have the same “false” document that Obama has?

  19. Michael Trujillo says:


    Thanks for the explanation.

    I was born on an Air Force Base and my birth certificate appears to be “short” form.

    Geez, it’s all so complicated.

  20. laytonian says:

    Thanks for looking at YOUR birth certificate, Michael. I wish everyone here would.

    Long form, short form. States, cities, the government collect all kinds of data at different times.

    For some reason, when my husband was born, the State of Nebraska wanted to know if certain drops were put in his eyes after he was born. It was an easy way to collect the information, if all of those questions were put on one form.

    BUT….that extraneous \long\ information has NOTHING to do with the purpose of a Certificate of Birth, Birth Certificate, Certificate of Live Birth….or whatever the chosen verbage is, in a particular venue.

    Hey, Trentleman and Gibson. Why don’t you guys challenge your readers to GET OUT YOUR BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND LOOK AT IT! Compare it to those of your friends and family, especially if they were born in different decades and/or states.

    I think it would make an interesting story.

    I’ll show you mine (and maybe my husband’s if you’re nice)…if you show me yours. ;)

  21. laytonian says:

    JT says “Did you notice that my birth certificate was issued by The Department of Defense and The State Department? It means I was born overseas, and as such (even though I am a citizen by birth) am ineligible to serve as President.”


    So why was John McCain eligible to serve as President?
    He was born in Panama, to two US citizens.

  22. This is BS!

    Were you asleep in your 9th grade Constitution Class? Everyone except you (and those who have attended government run schools) (i.e. public schools of today) know that a natural born citizen is one whose parents are both citizens (both Mom and Dad).

    Mr. Soetoro (aka Obama) had a pappy that was a British Foreign National…he was NEVER a citizen of the US. Whereas Mr. Soetoro may be a native citizen (if his granny was not a pathological liar) and he was not born in kenya and if he indeed was born in Hawaii (I am not convinced he was) he then may be a “native” citizen…MAYBE….

    Then we have the matter of his citizenship in Indonesia. When did he rebuke his Indonesia citizenship and when did he reapply for citizenship back to America? He is supposed to have traveled as an Indonesian Citizen and attended Occidental College and Columbia College as a foreign student. Show me his 1980-1990 passports…show me an american passport. Why is he hiding his passports?

    Pray tell… How can you still claim Mr. Soetoro is a natural born citizen when he carries the baggage of being a citizen of four different nations? britian, kenyan, american, and indonesia. Which country is he a Natural Born Citizen of? His daddy was British so no natural born citizenship to america came from him. His adopted daddy Mr. Soetoro was an Indonesian natural born citizen…so BarryO was last a natural born citizen of that country…not the USA. (We have school records showing him as a citizen of indonesia.)

    prove to me that BarryO had a daddy that was a citizen of our country and I will cease being a birther. Else I would suggest you all take some night class on the Constitution and American Government. You do not know our countries history, laws and Constitution!

    Edward C. Noonan

    P.S. And for that matter, BarryO’s mommie and daddy were never legally married. His daddy was already married in Kenya, so unless bigamy and polygamy was legal in Hawaii in 1961, then their marriage (if there was one) was never valid. So if BarryO was born out of wedlock, then that adds to the problem of his natural born status as well. This whole matter is a MESS!

    P.S.S…And yes! It matters whether or not BarryO is a citizen or not. If he is still an Indonesian Citizen and he never reapplied for American Citizenship it means we have a NON-CITIZEN in the White House. That is scary! I firmly believe barryO is NOT A U.S. Citizen and he is an illegal alien. He needs to be deported and forced to re-apply for citizenship to our country.

  23. laytonian says:

    Dear Edward C Noonan

    You are wrong. Just wrong. A “natural born citizen” is one who is born on US soil. It doesn’t matter who the parents are.

    I’ll bet you also complain about “anchor babies” (the children of illegal aliens, who are US citizens because they were born on US soil).


    Well, you can’t have it both ways. Or the 27 ways you birfers are trying to have it. Pick and argument and stick to it, rather than all of this “but..but..but”. Admit you’re a racist, then pray to your God for forgiveness.

    I hope you ARE using your real full name, because I’d hate to think you’re trying to make innocent person responsible for your nonsensical word soup.

  24. Jim Hutchins says:

    Well, Laytonian, it *is* a good chance for us all to learn what the term “post hoc ergo propter hoc” means.

    In this case, “I hate President Barack Obama, therefore he must have been illigitimately elected.”

  25. Mike says:


    That’s a long form BC from the same hospital Obama claims
    It’s for twins born August 5, 1961
    World Net Daily owns this issue.
    That is their latest article

    “According to a version of Obama’s purported short-form certificate available from, Obama was given a higher registration number than the Nordyke twins. The online image indicates the number is No. 151 – 1961 – 10641, even though he was born Aug. 4, 1961, the day before the twins, and his birth was registered with the Hawaii registrar three days earlier, Aug. 8, 1961. ”

    Good stuff.
    Unstamped certificate suggests Obama may not be “natural born” US citizen
    “The “birth certificate” claimed by the Barack Obama campaign is not certified as authentic and appears to be a photoshopped fake.”

    BTW no one should trust as unbiased is a ‘left-wing front group’ that is owned/funded by the same organization that funds the anti-gun Brady Campaign (Annenberg Foundation) and gave millions of dollars to Obama and his old friend William Ayers for an “education” project.

    Barack Hussein Obama II has spent over $800,000 to hide his birth certificate, passport, medical records and school records from public view.

    What the?

  26. laytonian says:

    Oh, Mr Edward C. Noonan

    It’s not a good idea to insult the electorate, since your little political party seems to be attracting only the basest of the wingnuts.

    Your failure to give the leader of your country, the President of the United States, the proper respect shows that you are NOT the patriot you claim to be. Not only do you hate your country, but it’s obvious you detest anyone who is not a white male. It’s even more frightening to find out that you want to retract the Constitution back to where it was
    in 1788.

    I see your party’s Presidential candidate was George Wallace and your latest candidate was Alan Keyes.

    You lead a political party, and you’ve changed your name? Why?
    Let’s see YOUR birth certificate.

    Since you claim to be LDS, let’s see your “long form temple baptism” papers, too.

    Do you sustain your LDS leaders? Even though they’ve sustained the President of the United States AND presented him with his geneaology?

  27. Deseret Dawg says:

    Laytonian – why don’t you quit your ridiculous race-baiting? People like you polarize and divide society far more than the Jesse Jacksons or Al Sharptons. You have no idea whether or not Edward C. Noonan is racist, and it wouldn’t bother me if he was, since ordinary Whites are witch-hunted for signs of “racism” in this country on a daily basis. Heck, Barack Obama has now basically told White police officers that they’ve got to get advance permission from him before they can arrest Black suspects. The so-called civil rights revolution has become nothing but a gigantic scam.

    And who appointed you Mr. Noonan’s bishop and endowed you with the authority to pass judgment on his worthiness? Sustaining President Monson does not require supporting Barack Obama.

  28. laytonian says:

    Oh, Desert Dawg.

    You’d better look at the history of Mr Noonan’s political party, before you start accusing someone else of “race-baiting”. The fact that you capitalize the word “White” (typical Aryan style) is all we need to know.

    Funny you came here to defend Noonan, after I challenged him. Who sent the two of you, and why are you both so afraid of a housewife?

    Why don’t you want to see Mr Noonan’s birth certificate?
    He heads a political party.
    He has run for Governor of California.
    He’s also run for the Secretary of State position in California.

    What’s his real name?
    Edward Clifford Davis or Edward C. Noonan and what is his hiding?

    Why does he want to invade the life of the President of the United States who has already proven he’s a natural-born citizen – yet he’s operating under at least two names?

    Why don’t you want to know?

    I would, if I was thinking of supporting him.

  29. Michael Trujillo says:

    Since the child of an immigrant, born in the US, is automatically a U.S. citizen (something the immigration reform folks are constantly complaining about), then the citizenship of his parents is irrelevant. So, we’re back to the question – where was his mother at when she had him?

    The Director of the Hawaii Dept. of Health has certified Obama’s birth certificate to be valid. That’s the same person who would verify a question about anyone born in Hawaii.

    What’s the problem now?

  30. laytonian says:

    Michael, you ask “What’s the problem now?”

    Easy: Obama’s blllllaaaaaacccccccckkkkkkkkkkk.

    Birfers think we didn’t notice that.
    We know it doesn’t matter.

  31. DadBode says:

    Birther: “Oh why won’t Barack Obama release his birth certificate? If only he did that simple little thing, we could put this whole matter to rest. And it would only cost him ten dollars.”

    Rational Person (RP): “Didn’t you see the birth certificate he posted online?”

    Birther: “Anyone could have Photoshopped that. In fact, I saw an anonymous guy on the internet claim that he could prove it was faked. He’s an expert in ‘instructional media.’”

    RP: “You do realize that ‘instructional media’ doesn’t have anything to do with document analysis, right?”

    Birther: “Regardless, it’s still fake. If Obama truly had nothing to hide, he’d release his long-form birth certificate, not this computer printout.”

    RP: “How should he release it? If he simply posted a scan online, wouldn’t you accuse it of being faked?”

    Birther: “Oh, certainly. Anything he produces shouldn’t be trusted unless it’s reviewed by a competent authority, like a judge.”

    RP: “So if Obama obtained his long-form birth certificate, published it, had a judge review it, and then the judge announced that it was legit and he was born in Hawaii, that would be enough? You’d give up arguing that his election is illegitimate, stop filing lawsuits, and concede that he’s eligible to be President?”

    Birther: “Hardly. For all we know, Obama’s parents could have lied to Hawaiian officials, and claimed he was born in Hawaii, when he was actually born in Kenya. Or Canada. For all we know, Hawaiian officials themselves might be in on the cover-up.”

    RP: “What if it can be proven beyond a doubt that the birth certificate is real and accurate, and that he was born in Hawaii. Let’s say there’s a video of John F. Kennedy himself playing midwife to Ann Dunham. Would that settle the matter?”

    Birther: “It’d settle the matter of where he was born. But that doesn’t mean he’s a natural-born citizen and eligible to be President.”

    RP: “Why?”

    Birther: “Because before he was born, his mother married a British citizen. That means she gave up her American citizenship even before he was born. And Obama can’t be a natural-born citizen if neither of his parents were American citizens.”

    RP: “So you’re begging Obama to release his birth certificate, even though you admit it won’t actually stop your complaints.”

    Birther: “That’s right.”

    RP: “Well, what if I can show you that American citizens don’t give up their American citizenship when they marry foreigners? Will that put this to rest?”

    Birther: “Oh, no. Even if I accepted that he was born in Hawaii, and that his mother was still an American citizen, his father was still a Kenyan and British citizen, and that means Obama inherited dual citizenship and thus wasn’t a natural-born citizen. So he can’t be President.”

    RP: “I see. For the sake of argument, then, let’s say that I could show you that there’s no requirement that a natural-born citizen be born of two U.S. citizens. Would that satisfy you?”

    Birther: “Sorry, but no. Even if the birth certificate proves he was born in Hawaii, and he could show that his mother was a U.S. citizen when he was born, and that his father’s citizenship didn’t disqualify him, there’s still the matter of Indonesia.”

    RP: “What does Indonesia have to do with anything?”

    Birther: “When Obama’s mother married Lolo Soetoro, she gave up her U.S. citizenship, and by proxy, Obama’s U.S. citizenship. So he can’t be President.”

    RP: “No, it doesn’t work that way. Didn’t we already cover this with her first marriage?”

    Birther: “It doesn’t matter. Even if her marriage didn’t invalidate his citizenship, when Obama was adopted by Lolo Soetoro, he ceased to be a U.S. natural-born citizen. So he can’t be President.”

    RP: “A minor child can’t surrender his U.S. citizenship that way. Besides, there’s no evidence that he was adopted in the first place.”

    Birther: “Even if that’s the case, he’s still not in the clear. Because when he traveled to Pakistan in 1981 on his Indonesian passport, he gave up his U.S. citizenship.”

    RP: “Apart from the fact that that wouldn’t have sacrificed his citizenship, do you actually have any direct evidence that he in fact did use an Indonesian passport?”

    Birther: “Not direct evidence. But American passport holders weren’t allowed into Pakistan in 1981.”

    RP: “Do you have any evidence that that is actually true about travel to Pakistan in 1981?”

    Birther: “No.”

    RP: “I see. OK, if you put aside the passport, would you concede that he’s eligible to be President?”

    Birther: “Still no. When Obama was adopted, his name was legally changed to ‘Barry Soetoro.’ There’s no proof he ever changed his name back, but he ran for President as ‘Barack Obama.’ And that violates election law. I will never accept his Presidency until I see the documentation where he changed his name back to Obama.”

    RP: “That’s impossible. How can he possibly produce that documentation, when he never changed his name away from Obama in the first place? What proof is there that he was ever legally adopted or changed his name? And even if he was adopted, what possible reason would there be to legally change his first name to a nickname?”

    Birther: “A school application in Indonesia says his last name was ‘Soetoro.’ They take those applications very seriously in Indonesia, so this is solid legal proof that he was adopted and had a name change.”

    RP: “And the fact that the same application says he was born in Hawaii?”

    Birther: “That was a mistake.”

    RP: “OK, so to recap, you wanted Obama to release a birth certificate, but when he did, you accused it of being a forgery? Right?”

    Birther: “Right.”

    RP: “And you say that if he simply shared his long-form birth certificate with the public, that could be forged too? Right?”

    Birther: “Right.”

    RP: “So you want him to release his long-form birth certificate and to have that birth certificate reviewed by a judge, to satisfy his critics and answer the questions they’re asking? Right?”

    Birther: “Right.”

    RP: “And if the judge affirms that the birth certificate is legitimate and it says his place of birth was Hawaii, you say it might be falsified, right?”

    Birther: “Right.”

    RP: “And even if he proves he was born in Hawaii, you claim he’s still not a natural-born citizen because of his mother’s first marriage, right?”

    Birther: “Right.”

    RP: “And if he then proves that the marriage isn’t an issue, you claim he’s still not a natural-born citizen because of his father’s citizenship, right?”

    Birther: “Right.”

    RP: “And if he then proves that his father’s citizenship isn’t an issue, you claim he’s still not a natural-born citizen because of his mother’s second marriage, right?”

    Birther: “Right.”

    RP: “And if he then proves that his mother’s second marriage isn’t an issue, you claim he’s still not a natural-born citizen because of his supposed adoption, right?”

    Birther: “Right.”

    RP: “And if he then proves that he didn’t give up his citizenship via adoption, you claim that he’s still not a natural-born citizen because of his 1981 travel to Pakistan, right?”

    Birther: “Right.”

    RP: “And if he then proves that he didn’t give up his citizenship via passport, and even when you run out of citizenship arguments completely, you then claim his election is illegitimate because his legal surname is Soetoro, right?”

    Birther: “Right.”

    RP: “So you want to know why Obama won’t take the simple measure of releasing his birth certificate, when you already have at least eight consecutive fall-back arguments you’ll make if he does so, whereby you’ll continue to insist that he’s ineligible for the Presidency even after he proves that he was born in Hawaii?”

    Birther: “Right.”

    RP: “Y’know, if I were Obama, I think I’d save my ten dollars too.”

  32. laytonian says:

    @ DadBode

    That condenses the birthers’ word soup arguments amazingly well!

    It’d be perfect, if it disputed the birther lie about the 1981 Pakistan visit, as discussed here:

    Thank you, DadBode!

  33. laytonian says:

    Mark, the birthers reject anything connected to

    Here’s their reasoning: is connected to the Annenberg Foundation
    The Annenberg Foundation is made up of commie pinkos
    Those commie pinkos include Barack Obama and Bill Ayers
    Obama and Ayers were board members on “educational challenge” funded by the Annenberg Foundation
    Obama picked the Annenberg Foundation to dispute the rumors of his birth in Kenya
    Ergo, is part of the conspiracy.

    The problem with their reasoning?
    The Annenberg Foundation is the legacy of the right-wing.
    Walter Annenberg was one of Reagan’s best friends and publisher of Reader’s Digest (still leaning right-wing)

    Here: [Death by 1000 Papercuts]

    OF COURSE, has disputed rumors surrounding Sarah Palin and other right-wingers, disputed claims by the Obama compaign….but that’s obviously part of the conspiracy, just to make factcheck look “fair”.’s dispute of Palin rumors: disputes Obama’s claims:

    The genetic difference between a Reasonable Person and a birther is that the Reasonable Person can understand nuance, and seeks out independent information.

  34. Michael Trujillo says:

    Great piece of writing. All it needs is Abbott and Costello playing the roles and it would become a classic like “Who’s on First”.

    Keep up the good work.

  35. Mike says:

    It’s a New World Order

    The left and the right are two heads of the same snake!

    The country is run by the CFR, just ask Hillary

    moderation? lol

    censorship! Doh!

    Let’s just investigate it and move on!

    The CNN/Fox mouthpieces are liars, and so are you

    laytonian, suck an egg

  36. Jim Hutchins says:

    Wow, Mike, Socrates would be proud.

    “Suck an egg.”

    Bet he wishes he’d thought of that.

  37. laytonian says:

    “Suck an egg”? “So are you.” “It’s a New World Order.”

    Mike, what are you? 93 years old?

    “It’s Hillary’s fault”
    CFR? You’re angry at the Code of Federal Regulations?
    Or Cullen/Frost Bankers, Inc.?

    Mike, you’re just mad because you have no defense against the facts we’ve all posted. We’ve made you and your friends look silly, UNinformed, and (frankly) dangerous to the citizens of the United States of America..

    We’ve asked questions of you, and you’ve had no logical response.

    Please, Mike. Turn off the hate radio and start thinking for yourself.

    We care.

  38. Jim Hutchins says:

    A new Kos/Research 2000 poll shows 58 percent of Republicans either think Obama’s not born in America or have some doubts:



    Over on other discussion boards, some have criticized the source (The Daily Kos is a well-known liberal website/blog) but the well-respected Nate Silver at seems to give the organization some credibility (this is from the pre-2008 election poll analyses):

  39. Token says:

    Actually, to me the more interesting thing that must be explored is Obama’s status as a “Natural Born Citizen” in light of his undeniable birth as a British Subject. ( and if you want to throw scorn on that as a problem for him, please do a little case law research in the subject, just yelling “Sez YOU” and metaphorically “mooning” me is so undignified) But the Birth Certificate is the topic, so:

    In order to understand the birth certificate puzzle, I believe it is imperative that people quit referring to a “Certification of Live Birth” Vs a “Long Form Birth Certificate”, and refer to what’s being discussed in proper and hence more definitive terms. What Obama has released is a computer generated printout from a searchable database, and it doesn’t require any great conspiracy to explain differences between it and the Archived Original Birth Certificate, The computer data base has no “long term memory”, it is not, by definition susceptible to “Forgery” as it is a wholly computer generated fiction just like pictures of flying saucers on the White House Lawn. What gives this fiction its usefulness is that it is easily searchable and completely and readily modifiable.
    It is, by definition, a “Forgery” and a fiction- it is a State authorized and certified “informational copy” of the actual filled out in long hand and signed birth document. To debate its “Authenticity” is as irrellevant as arguing about how long an “exposure” was required to take the flying saucer picture.

    It is a useful legal fiction in the same way that a paper dollar bill is “Money” and “Represents” a certain amount of actual ( ?Gold. not any more) (Silver ? nope) ok what it represents is no more nor less than your belief in the full faith and credit of the United States Government, who collectively assert that this small sheet of relatively worthless paper actually represents a certain quantity of “Value”. Why does it HAVE value ? Well, because (let’s all clap for Tinkerbelle here) We Believe that it does!

    What’s this got to do with Obamas Birth Certificate? What Obama has posted is the informational equivalent of the dollar bill. It is worthless in itself and it is no more susceptible to being checked for “Forgery” than a photograph of your spouse is capable of being checked for lung cancer. That is why it is such a hoot to watch the savants at “Factcheck” solemnly documenting the “Authenticity” of a piece of paper that has no importance whatsoever other than the accuracy of the information it conveys. And, of course, what is in question is the accuracy of the information it conveys. And that is why people are confused (perhaps intentionally) by the difference between these two types of document.

    A computer database will print out whatever it was last edited it says it should print out. The only reason that the information on such a “Certfication” document is worth anything more than the paper it’s printed on, is partially because of the paper it’s printed on. Like money, certificates from clerk’s offices are almost always printed on specially prepared and jealously guarded forms.
    Do forms get “stolen” and printed up on somebody’s personal Okidata 320 printer ? Sure, That’s why blank North Carolina marriage forms are worth $400 in NYC ( with a properly filled out North Carolina Marriage Certificate, you too can be a US citizen)
    So – Is Obamas posted Database Printout Birth Certificate “Authentic?’ I have no doubt whatsoever that it was printed on a certificate form from the proper Hawaiian Authority—and that’s about all that “Checking it for Authenticity” can determine.

    The other, and far more important reason the database certificate has any value is that the Full Faith and Credit of the Honolulu Health Department stands behind it, The way that they do this is by actually keeping and archiving original documents or at least the actual photographic or computer scanned copy of the original document. Usually both. From the way the Clerk responded when the president of CNN claimed that the original documents had been destroyed by her office in 2001, after they were entered in the database, it sounds as if she still has the original filed copy. And to say she has good reason to be peeved with someone who casually accuses her of destroying original documents doesn’t begin to cover it. Her job consists primarily of standing liable ( and I do mean monetarily) for the accuracy of the information she places before the public. The only reason she can stand “Good” for the accuracy of that information is that she maintains archival photographs or scans of, or actual original copies of the filed documents themselves.
    This means that she can absolutely check the original document and verify under oath that the database generated copy contains the same information as the original.

    Which is great as far as it goes

    What she is forbidden to do, in the case of “Sealed “ documents, is divulge any of the other information contained in the original document, that is, any information not available to the public from the database. These are such things as Doctor’s name/signature, Hospital, religion ( in some older birth certificates in some states) etc. Thus, my thought that the” Archival Birth Certificate” ( let’s call it by it’s correct name, rather than “Long Form”) must in fact confirm that Obama’s Place of birth, is in fact recorded as Honolulu, as is indicated by the “Database Birth Certificate” ( the so called “Certification of Live Birth” posted on the internet) And that led me to speculate that there might be some other inconvenient truth revealed by the Archived Certificate.
    What I have tried to convey is that it really doesn’t require a vast conspiracy to account for a difference between the Database Certificate (Fiat information- to borrow a monetary term) Vs the Archival Birth Certificate ( Actual information) All it would take is an alteration of the database for any of a number of reasons, not the most likely of which, but still possible, the intervention of a friendly hacker- or one confederate in the clerk’s office to supply a form to someone who owns a computer and an Okidata 320 printer. However, the Clerk has stood liable for the accuracy of the database generated certificate, so any embarrassment for Obama would have to come from the non-disclosed information of the Archival Birth Certificate.
    A logical conclusion of the type of inconvenient truth that might be exposed by release of the Archival Birth Certificate would be that it would indicate the type of birth registration it is, and 3 of four types would be inconclusive at best. ( Please note- these are the type of registrations used in Hawaii in 1961, birth registration today is much less caual)
    Type One is filed by a Hospital or attending physician or midwife and is attested to by the licensed professionals involved. This can be regarded as definitive proof that the child was indeed born when and where the certificate states.
    Type two is filed by a parent or other adult who “has knowledge” of an unattended birth and is solely dependent on their declaration of the facts filed. A little more “Iffy”
    Type three is a delayed certificate of birth that can be filed anytime after a birth, once again on the sole testimony of an adult who has knowledge of the event. “More “Iffy” Still
    Type four is very interesting in that it allows for the filing by a resident of Hawaii who has resided in Hawaii for at least a year and has stated their intention to continue to reside in Hawaii, and allows registration of the birth of a child that has occurred “Extraterritorially”- that is, somewhere other than in Hawaii. This is how Sun Yatsen, who was actually born in China, comes to have a Hawaiian Birth Certificate.
    A type Four Birth Certificate would mean Mister Obama has some ‘splaynin to do.
    Two other points:
    The court cases filed so far have been dismissed, not because they were considered unsupported by fact, but because the Judges involved declared that those who filed the cases lacked standing- that is, as mere citizens of the US, they lack cause to challenge the Presaidents eligibility. It is unclear as yet whether the soldier who challenged the Presidents authority to deploy him, will be held to have “standing”
    The birth announcements in the Honolulu newspapers were issued as a matter of course by the health department on the recording of a birth. No conspiracy at all, just business as usual.
    References? Find your own- it took me less than a half hour to Google these “facts”. You wont trust or check my references anyway. I did work for 15 years setting up government vital records systems in all parts of the US, and I assure you that there is a very great difference between an actual Archival copy of a 1961 Birth Certificate, and the Database Certification of Live Birth- One Contains the Facts, the other simply puts forward the “Certification” that these would probably be the some of the facts if we could be bothered to check them- which, to be fair, is usually suffiicient to most needs. In this case, it isn’t.
    The larger problem for Obama is that many of the people who voted for him are suffering an extreme case of “Buyer’s Remorse” and “Sticker Shock”. (Me for one) Many people now realize that for all his promises he’s just another classic Liberal. His not addressing the issues of his eligibility, ie. His failure to release his Archival Birth Certificate, and to me, the more questionable question of being undeniably born a British subject, only makes him less trustworthy in the eyes of the “Centrists” ( Libertarian?) citizens who provided his margin off victory in 2008. Unless he addresses these issues, he most likely will not be removed from office by impeachment, but in 2012 by the more conventional means of voter revulsion.( Leaving behind a Democratic Congressional delegation decimated by the 2010 elections)(Remember 1994?)

  40. Token says:


    On rereading this, I just can’t ignore your hate speech. You know what I mean. Every time someone disagrees with you liberals you break out the N- word. I consider myself to be a libertarian. I was hoping that I would be allowed to vote for a “Pro-Death” candidate in 2008 ( I’m someone who believes in both a women’s right to choose to kill her child and the right of the state to kill undesirables- so long as I get to choose who is undesirable)To translate that into less confrontational terms, I believe that abortion has to be the individual choice of the woman, and that I do not trust the state to be able to administer a death penalty in a just manner, so they should not be permitted to administer it at all. I fear the unbridled usurpation of Rights by the executive branch in its literally un-warranted searches and seizures and the suppression of free speech by the increasingly militarized federal police agencies ( Can you say Gestapo?). I believe that mutually consenting adults should be allowed to have any relationship with each other that they can come up with, so long as they harm no one who has not consented.
    I believe that so long as they harm no one else, adults should be allowed to partake of any sacrament they find advisable, including Wine, Wafer, LSD, Peyote, and Rattlesnake Handling. I believe I have a right to Privacy, once again so long as I harm no one , it is not within the authority of any other person, nor any governmental body to record either visually, or electronically any of my daily life- We are each and all private and individual citizens and we have a Right to be unmolested in our daily activities.
    I believe we have not just a Right but a duty to defend not only ourselves and our families but also any other innocent fellow creature whom we observe placed in danger by accident or malice. This includes the Right to use deadly force if warranted- such use of deadly force being warranted only by the immediate need to save an innocent creature from death or serious injury by a malicious assailant ( Yes, that does mean that, though I no longer hunt, I still eat meat and number hunters among my friends. I also would gladly shoot any idiot I found shooting cats or dogs ( or any animal) for “sport”)
    That all individuals are created equal does not even go without saying- it is stated in so many words in the Declaration of Independence, and it is the ultimate source of legitimate government by consent of the governed.
    I do not think of “Darth” Bush and “Darth” Cheney ( as they are referred to by some of my friends) as being “Evil” so much as somewhat misguided, misinformed, and incompetent to lead our nation where it needs to go. I also am not very happy with the Clintons and other “Beltway” Democrats for the same reasons. I really was not looking forward to having to choose between Hillary Clinton and John McCain .
    Then along came Barack. I really did not know who he was or where he came from,I honestly thought he was from Illinois, It wasn’t really relevant to what he was saying. I liked what he was saying. My Democrat friends were wild in their praises for him. My Republican friends were mostly lamenting the fact that all they were being offered was a “Maverick” who mostly just seemed concerned with “Out Demarcating” the Democrats.
    To make a long story short, I voted for Obama in the hope and belief that he really represented something new and vital in politics- Change
    Let’s just say I’m more than a little disappointed – I am currently having an enormous case of “Sticker Shock” and “Buyers Remorse” at what I “purchased.”.
    And now I find out that apparently Mr. Obama has known about the need to address the questions about his eligibility ever since both he and McCain were “Outed” as Un-“Naturally Born” citizens in Winter 2008 by Hillary Clinton’s campaign. And he chose not to do as McCain did, which was release his Archival Birth Certificate and gain congressional affirmation of his “Natural Born” status. And he has since chosen to spend a great deal of money to hinder and denigrate any investigation of his eligibility.
    I’m sorry, he has lost any credibility he ever had with me.
    To paraphrase the old song. I don’t have to “get on my knees and pray” I WONT be fooled again. Not in 2012, not even in 2010
    As for you liberals in love with the N- word ? I’m sorry, you guys never did have a lot of credibility with me. What offends me is your HATE speech. I am proudly of Swiss Heritage, the home of the original libertarians, and it is intolerable that you feel that you can refer to me as a NAZI.

  41. Token says:

    Found this last night- a concise and straightforward presentation of the Obama citizenship problem:

    On rereading the statements of the Hawaiian officials who vouch for Obama’s “Birth Certificate”, I find I must withdraw my former statement that the information conveyed by the Database generated
    Certification of Live Birth must be essentially correct, because the Hawaiian officials had vouched for it. On rereading their statement it becomes clear that all the officials have vouched for is that they do, in fact, have an archival, vault, long form, birth certificate for Obama on file.

    The other significant point made in this posting is that the “conspiracy” to file a false birthplace for Obama was not necessitated by some prophetic revelation that he needed to have been born in Hawaii in case he one day wished to be president, but was in fact more likely a “conspiracy” between Ann Dunham and her parent(s) brought about by the realization that, if little Barack had not been born on US soil, he would not have a claim to any sort of US citizenship at all, but would have been a single citizenship British Subject of Kenya. And since, as I previously stated, it appears that the contemporaneous appearence of birth announcements in the Honolulu newspapers was simply a result of the health department policy of posting the announcements on registration of a birth, the whole notion of the necessity of some “vast conspirracy to ensure that someday little Barack woukd grow up to be president” is simply not true. The only conspiracy necessary is betwwen Ann Dunham and her older and wiser parent, on the realization that by birthing her child in it’s fathers homeland of Kenya, she had denied the child any claim to US citizenship at all. It is also possible that even that much “conspiracy” was unnecessary, in that Ann Dunham may have made that realization on her own, and so simply filed for the certificate on her return from Kenya.
    The “conspiracy” part of the “Birther Saga” actaully seems to begin in the winter of 2008, when Hillary Clinton’s campaign “Outed” BOTH McCain and Obama as Un”Naturally Born” US citizens. McCain’s camp immediately released his Archival Birth Certifficate, and Congress affirmed his status as “Naturally Born”. Obama’s people had a “Houston, we have a Problem” moment. And have been conspiring to obstruct inquiry ever since.

  42. Cathy says:

    Why did those last three posts just remind me of Subterranean Homesick Blues by Bob Dylan, only not as much fun to listen to?

    Look out kid
    They keep it all hid
    Better jump down a manhole
    Light yourself a candle
    Don’t wear sandals
    Try to avoid the scandals
    Don’t wanna be a bum
    You better chew gum
    The pump don’t work
    ‘Cause the vandals took the handles…

  43. Token says:

    Funny you should mention that, I was around and taking that song as an anthem back in tha days of “Tricky Dick”
    Where were you?

  44. Token says:

    Matter of fact, when anything didn’t turn out as expected, my college roommate and I would look at each other significantly and drawl.
    “The VANDles stole the HANDles”
    Thanks for bringing back some good memories

  45. Token says:


    Thanks for posting the Dylan link- haven’t thought about that song in years- it’s just as great now as it was then. And I agree, I’d a lot rather listen to Dylan than some Old fart spoutin off- makes me remeber what it felt like to be young and know everything- just goes to show, you shouldnt provoke an old “Revolutionary” by calling him a “Nazi” (LOL)

  46. Cathy says:

    Bob Dylan rocks! On the question where was I… not quite yet born hahah – but I would refrain from calling anyone an old fart, nor would I criticize anyone for spouting off. Some of the best discussions I’ve had in some time, have been in these blogs =)

  47. Nicole says:

    To Laytonian especially … Why do you insist on personally insulting people with a different view than you? You pile on your condescension toward conservatives. You imply we’re all racist rightwing religious neanderthals. You know what? I’m sick of being called dumb by liberals. I used to be a liberal. I grew out of it. I hold a masters degree. I have three kids. And I’m a journalist as well. I am not dumb. And I haven’t met too many dumb conservatives.

    But I am sensing a lot of stupidity from the left when they refuse to acknowledge the difference between “citizen” and “natural born citizen”

    Good God. If citizenship were all that mattered, Arnold could be president.

    We’re talking about a very specific requirement really only found in the Constitutional qualifications to be president. And it literally means having both parents be citizens. The Founding Fathers were concerned about dual citizens!!!

    So, whether some “birthers” think we’re talking about citizenship, and some liberals want to call anybody asking questions a sore loser racist, most people who have followed this issue know, in fact, it’s not that simple.

    I’m sorry you seem to think we can scrap specific requirements in the Constitution or ignore them whenever we feel like it. I say that’s a nice slippery slope into tyranny.

    And don’t call me a crazy birther. I prefer to think of myself as an interested citizen who doesn’t like presidents hiding all their school records and passport documents. I don’t care what party or race they are.

  48. Cathy says:

    The constitution does nowhere define “natural born citizen.” Birthers are essentially ingoring what is already in he constitution (i.e., the 14th amendment), in favor of re-interpreting what is not otherwise defined, because they don’t like the president.

    FYI we have had 6 US presidents whose parents were immigrants. We seem not to care so much about where the parents were born, as where the president was born.

  49. Jim Hutchins says:


    You’re absolutely right. We need to go back and retroactively remove any laws put into place during the Chester Arthur administration.

  50. Mark Shenefelt says:

    The birther leaders even want Obama to be deported. Well, hmm, follow that thought. Regarding past administrations run by presidents who had immigrant parents, to provide a clean sweep, it might be judicious to exhume Arthur and fellows and deport their corpses.

    I know, the thread has become silly, but I couldn’t resist.

  51. Cathy says:

    Both of Andrew Jackson’s parents were immigrants.

    Oh the horror.

  52. Bill says:

    Obama isn’t black enough. And he’s too skinny. We need a fat white man… Someone really conceited. Someone who came from a different background. Maybe, oh,…a rich cattle rancher…with poor linguistic skills and not really in touch with the lower class. Some one who comes off as conservative, but has never conserved a thing in their life except for antiquated notions of a mechanical universe. Someone who thinks we should be dependent on foreign oil. Someone who panders to big business…maybe a ‘C’ student,…like George Bush. Or pretty like Sarah Palin. I think that having someone in the white house who came from a welfare family and actually cares about human beings is a bit much. Obama is really just too realistic. Maybe we should make up all sorts of stupid conspiracy theories and get people to hate the man…because “… the sheriff’s a (blazing saddles racist reference).
    C’mon people. Get real. Who gives rats butt…

  53. Bill says:

    Besides. We’re ALL immigrants. Just ask a Native American.

  54. Hawaii Lawyer says:

    This is not a complex issue. Yet it has become a rhetorical fallacy-fest.

    It is not a matter for name calling…ie kkk, Nazi, racist, Obamabot, birther, MSM stooge…etc.

    Without documentary proof it doesn’t matter who believes which story, as in “Rush Limbaugh says, or O’Reilly says, or so and so believes…”

    It is just a matter of documents. The collage, law school and birth records should not be concealed…even if simply a matter of transparency, and historical significance.

    A reasonable third party must conclude something is being hidden for a reason.

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