We are seeing and hearing the name Mormon a lot these days. Journalist and commentators occasionally brush by the origin of the name, but rarely explain.
Mormon is a name of an ancient prophet who lived approximately in the fourth century A.D. He lived in the Americas among a people who spiraled downward rather quickly to an awful destruction. Writing to his son Moroni before the final battle of his people he conveyed: “Behold, the pride of this nation…have proven their destruction except they should repent. Pray for them, my son, that repentance may come unto them. But behold, I fear lest the Spirit hath ceased striving with them….they [seek] to put down all power and authority which cometh from God; and they are denying the Holy Ghost” (see Moroni 8:27-30).
Mormon and his son Moroni witnessed the entire destruction of their people (the Nephite Nation). Mormon taught in places of worship on faith, hope, and charity even though he lived among a people “strong in their perversion . . . brutal, sparing none,” “without principle,” a people continually “seeking for blood and revenge” (Moroni 9:19–20, 23). This noble prophet exhibited characteristics to endure in righteousness during time of war and conflict.
As a prophet-historian, Mormon knew the ramifications when his people indulged in iniquity and forgot their God, both individually and as a nation. Even though his people had hardened their hearts and chosen the sword over the word, Mormon sought to reclaim his people. He told his son: “And now…notwithstanding their hardness, let us labor diligently; for if we should cease to labor, we should be brought under condemnation; for we have a labor to perform whilst in this tabernacle of clay, that we may conquer the enemy of all righteousness, and rest our souls in the kingdom of God” (Moroni 9:6).
Little do people know what is behind the word, the name—Mormon. They will never fully distinguish and appreciate the greatness of this ancient prophet until they read his ancient record.
President Gordon B. Hinckley (1910—2008) observed: “I suppose that regardless of our efforts, we may never convert the world to general use of the full and correct name of the Church. Because of the shortness of the word Mormon and the ease with which it is spoken and written, they will continue to call us the Mormons, the Mormon Church, and so forth. Anyone who comes to know the man Mormon, through the reading and pondering of his words, anyone who reads this precious trove of history [the Book of Mormon] which was assembled and preserved in large measure by him, will come to know that Mormon is not a word of disrepute, but that it represents the greatest good—that good which is of God.”
His greatest good reverberates in these words to his son: “Be faithful in Christ….may Christ lift thee up, and may his sufferings and death, and the showing his body unto our fathers, and his mercy and long-suffering, and the hope of his glory and of eternal life, rest in your mind forever” (Moroni 9:25).
….”We have been Borne as Nephi of Old to Goodly Parents
Who Serve the Lord…We will Prepare, until we are Old to
Take the Gosple to all the World…”
…”We are as the Army of [Helimon], We have been taught in
our Youth and we will be the Lord Missionarys to bring the World
his Truth…”
As with the Myriads of Young, we are of the “Stripling Warriors”.
An Army of Warriors, that returned from battle, without any scares.
While Honoring & Obeying the law >He-law-men<.
Source Material
Deseret Book/Shadow Mountain Archives
"Only if Needs be that you read these things"
[Moroni 09:16]
It is ironic that far more people associate the word “Mormon” with a book than with one of the book’s principal characters, but it shouldn’t surprise since The Book of Mormon is the most known characteristic of the LDS Church.
Ironically, had Mormon lived to complete and bury his record, we’d most likely be known as the Nephite church. It was Mormon’s intent to call his record the Book of Nephi. His son Moroni altered the title to honor his late father. Given how fully the Nephites by Moroni’s day had descended to barbarism before their annihilation, I can’t say I regret the change.
I’ve read much of the Book or Mormon and find it interesting you present Mormon as an historical figure. I clearly understand the religious value of the book, but it seems much more likely to be a collection of 19th century allegory than historical. If historical, an old world setting seems more plausible than Joseph Smith’s Americas interpretation anyway. Since your Joseph Smith said it wasn’t his book, his interpretation doesn’t count for much, unless his claim was part of the allegory (albeit not part of the book).
“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8-9
“And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” 2 Corinthians 11:14
Mormon was not an ancient prophet. Rather, he is merely the product of the fertile imagination of Joseph Smith who preached a different gospel and a different Jesus. Therefore, there is no salvation in Mormonism. I tell you the truth in love, Joseph Smith created a god in his image and called him “jesus”. Salvation, though, is only possible through faith in the Biblical Jesus of Christianity. I implore you to seek Him, apart from the demon-christ of Mormonism.
Amen brother!
So he lived in the 4th century AD in the Americas? Part of the lost Nephite people? I suppose its too much to ask for any archealogical evidence of this society. Any DNA evidence? And the letter he wrote to his son Moroni. Any clues about what language that was written in? Is there a Rosetta Stone that enables translation.
Seriously, how can you write these fairy stories with a straight face.
Do you realize how naive you have to be to believe this garbage. You don’t think Israelis living in the Americas would be traceable. Where is the archeological evidence? There is stuff all over the world that dates back to the 4th century AD.
Santa Clauss loves children, and through his unselfish actions, millions of children who would otherwise never feel loved are able to get presents. It is a fact that he lives in the north pole, this is a provable fact by the many movies and stories from so many independent sources, it cannot be denied. I have cried at the idea of his loving kindness and felt a kinship to him, I seen in my mind’s eye all the adventures and trials that he must face every year an therefore I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is real. It is only those poor people that are so full of fear and hatred that like to dispute his existence, the are so pathetic, we pray for them, we feel sorry for them and hope that Santa will not put them on the naughty list. Santa was born in the 16th century, we know that much. Although some claim that because he has never been filmed or because his has never allowed his shop to be photographed that he does not exist. The reality is that we take this hateful opposition as proof that he lives and loves us all. Tim Allen, a respected actor, proved that he lives. Why would Hollywood go to such trouble to recreate his shop? Can special effects really make reindeer look so life like? I don’t think so. My mom told me that she saw him on December 24, 1987. I love my mom and know that she would never lie to me, there is no reason for her to lie, so it true.
awesome!
@Mikeasell:
When you are willing, as were Joseph and Hyrum Smith, to give your life for your testimony, I might pay attention.
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr’gmail’com
using a gun is not dying as a martyr. Joseph Smith lived and died as the con man that he was and many who knew him testified to that truth.
Larry,
There are many rationale arguments one can make against Smith and Mormonism. But Smith’s unsucessful defence himself against a vigilante mob with a smuggled piston while jailed awaiting trial for a non-capital crime isn’t even close to being one of them. You reveal yourself here as nothing more than a bigot with an axe to grind.
But it doesn’t make him a martyr. A martyr is one who lays down their life willingly without resistance.
My “axe to grind” is to obey Christ and “contend earnestly for the faith” Jude 3
It is also to rebuke unsound doctrine
2 Timothy 4:1-4 “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at[a] His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.”
Larry,
OK, so you’re both a bigot and a moron who doesn’t know how to use a Dictionary.
When you leave me a present under my tree, I will listen to you!
@tracy- I will ask for a lot less: one milligram of steel in the new world, one ounce of horse bone prior to the Spaniards, one city name, one word of reformed Egyptian written anywhere, one clue that these kings lived here, one gene proving that one of the billions of natives that have lived here came from Jerusalem…until then you can believe in your santas all you want and I will believe facts. See faith proves facts, not fairy tales for adults.
Mikeasell / TR – your little Santa Claus story can be used about the reality of Jesus Christ. You want to fire off that mocking diatribe about Him?
God will not be mocked. I’m sorry you feel comfortable debating that fact. Whether mocking God, or His servants, it is the same. I fully understand you may not believe Joseph Smith was His servant, but again, I’m sorry you feel comfortable not just not believing but taking it a 100 yards further to fully, blatantly, mock.
And yes, I will use testimony to refute your words. Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. His teachings and the Book of Mormon have brought me to Jesus Christ. And I know that God will not be mocked.
Sister Hall and Sister Ziebarth,
You are running into one of the logical shelters that cult members run to: making errors in cognitive association. I will explain. I said nothing of God or Jesus Christ, but you, instinctively go there to defend yourself, why?
Because you have been taught, brainwashed really, into thinking that: if God exist and loves us, then the book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith was a prophet and if he was a prophet then the current leader is a prophet. One does not prove the other. Its a flawed system of building on a common principle in order to try to manipulate the outcome of reason.
My example, and why it bothered you so much, was used to exemplify this phenomenon. I have a brilliant friend who teaches Sunday school in your church. We had a very interesting discussion about certainty. You are certain that Mormon lived, no doubt. But Certainty, as he pointed out, is a FEELING. You can be certain of many things that turn out not to be true. This is my point. There is no evidence that Mormon lived, none. In face all the evidence, the facts point to the book of mormon being a fabrication. You compare this to Christ and the Bible, this is flawed because Christ did live, there is historical proof of him, there are independent records (or witnesses, as you would call them) that he lived. There is a city named Rome, and Jerusalem, there is a Jericho, Moses is in the history books, they are FACTUAL. No matter how you feel about Abraham, he lived. You on the other hand are trying to make proof out of feelings of certainty, but feelings can be manipulated and changed. The Mormon church at one point taught this doctrine, that everyone must do as JS did and find the truth for their own, find true principles and lived by them. Now your faith focuses on feelings, particularly a feeling of blind faith to your leaders and ever changing doctrines.
Secondly. Joseph Smith dies because someone shot him as he ran to the window to send a masonic distress signal so they would not shoot him. He shot multiple times, one man died there, the other later from his wounds. JS died because word of his liaisons with married and underage woman got out. This is FACT, read the independent papers from the time and your own church history. One of the oaths that Masons take is that they will not have sex with the daughters or wives of fellow masons outside of marriage. Joseph did this and that is an oath punishable by death, this is what actually happened.
You may say that people have an ax to grind simply because the facts they present do not match your feeling of certainly, and since those feelings are tied to God and JC then you feel they are attacking them, personally, because you have associated them that way. You can always revert back you tour feelings for comfort, but no matter how much you have testified that they are true, it does not make them facts.
Using the word Mormon is appropriate. A nonexistent person that is part of a scam by Joseph Smith reflects the empty promise of the LDS organization and those who lead it.
@Randy Nielson,
Mormonism is a pure restoration of New Testament Christianity. It is creedal Christianity that teaches the \contrary gospel\ to which Paul referred in Galatians 1:8-9. I suppose that when Christ returns in glory in the clouds of heaven, many creedal Christians, citing 2 Corinthians 11:14, will also reject him as a \demon-christ.\
In no case does\The Book of Mormon: Another Testament for Jesus Christ,\ contradict the Bible, and it repeatedly affirms its truth. The ancient prophet Mormon, a disciple of Jesus Christ, testified that anyone who truly believes either record will believe the testimony of the other. (Mormon 7:8-10 http://bit.ly/pfJeFy )
The Book of Mormon testifies that after his ascension, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ (the one you call a demon-christ) appeared to about 2,500 witnesses: men, women, and children. (3 Nephi 17:25 http://bit.ly/ixhlMV )
The Father first spoke from heaven, as he had done at the baptism of Jesus and at at the transfiguration, in bold defiance of the man-made doctrine of the trinity: \Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.\ (Matthew 3:17 http://bit.ly/nWxBi9 ; Matthew 17:5 http://bit.ly/r5oHng ; 3 Nephi 11:7 http://bit.ly/iJbMFd )
Christ then descended from heaven and said, \Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.
\And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.
\Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.\ (3 Nephi 11:10-11,14 http://bit.ly/pHBIP8 ) And you call this holy being a \demon-christ?\
And at the last day, when the you meet the resurrected ancient prophets Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni in the presence of our holy Lord Jesus Christ, will you still call them products of the \fertile imagination of Joseph Smith?\ (2 Nephi 33:11 http://bit.ly/oBrx6I , Moroni 10:34 http://bit.ly/nXjM7s )
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr’gmail’com
Larry Robinson, who would have us address him by honorific “Reverend,” shows no reverence for the work of God when he calls this work a “scam” and pronounces God’s eternal promises to be “empty.”
Someone who flippantly dismisses the Book of Mormon as a “scam” obviously has never made a sincere, serious study of it. (See “The Miracle of Joseph Smith Translating the Book of Mormon” http://bit.ly/o7siTF )
Nor can any work with such a carefully-maintained provenance as the Book of Mormon possibly be a “scam.”
Consider that provenance: The angel Moroni personally showed the plates to three witnesses, who heard the voice of God declare that the translation was by his “gift and power.” Joseph then showed them to eight others who hefted them and carefully examined their engravings. (Testimony of Three Witnesses http://bit.ly/iixumu, Testimony of Eight Witnesses http://bit.ly/mJsthy )
The twelve witnesses to the Book of Mormon (Joseph Smith included) are God’s eternally-binding legal witness to the physical, tangible reality of the Book of Mormon. The world ignores their testimony at its peril. All the witnesses were men of integrity who were faithful to their testimony to the end of their lives, and several gave their lives for it. (Richard Lloyd Anderson: “Book of Mormon Witnesses” http://bit.ly/lFWKll )
Latter-day Saints do revere the Bible, even though the provenance of its received text is obscured in antiquity. But the provenance of “The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ,” is meticulously preserved. Its custody and authorship were carefully recorded as the plates were handed down from one prophet to the next, beginning with Nephi and ending with Mormon, who abridged the record, and Mormon’s son Moroni, who hid the plates up to the Lord. (See Terryl Givens, “The Book of Mormon: a very short introduction” http://bit.ly/qn2WQA )
The chain of custody and authority is unbroken, from Lehi to Moroni, to the Three Witnesses, to the first Quorum of Twelve Apostles, to today’s First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All are special witnesses of Jesus Christ to their own and to all future generations.
No book that leads hundreds of thousands of people every year to enter into the eternal covenant of baptism with Jesus Christ and to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost should ever be dismissed with the puerile epithet of “scam.”
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr’gmail’com
Not studied it? that’s funny.
I studied to be baptized into the LDS church when I was engaged to a wonderful young woman who was my high school sweetheart. Fortunately for me at the moment I was to be baptized into Mormonism, the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said “This is not of Me-Run!” and run I did back to the living Christ who is the true Christ and not the one of Mormonism
I have studied Mormonism for more than 30 years, and have a large collection of Mormon documents (more than most Temple Mormons have seen). I have my own copies of Mormon Doctrine (pre 1978) and many excellent copies of Mormon documents from the 1800′s. I have studied all about Pearl of Great Price which one of the more laughable cons by Smith as it has repeatedly been exposed as a fraud.
Read the D&C’s, J of D’s, History of the Church, have witnessed to Mormons about the true God and the true Jesus for these past 30 plus years. I have worked in ministry to Mormons with former Temple workers Chuck and Dolly Sackett who now serve the True God and True Jesus. Chuck taped Temple endowment ceremonies and revealed them in His book What’s Going on in There”
So, I’m well equipped to debate ANY member of LDS
@ “Reverend” Larry Robinson:
No anti-Mormon is worthy of the honorific “Reverend.” As long as you testify of Christ, however you understand him, fine. Enjoy your chosen profession. (Luke 20:46 http://bit.ly/ptteFo)
But when you misdirect your energies to attacking the faith of the Latter-day Saints and defaming his anointed apostles and prophets, you’ll get zero respect from me, whatever your version of priestcraft.
Alma 1:12,16 http://bit.ly/qoMhHa
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr’gmail’com
Your “church” has NO authority.
According to Jesus and His apostles, Jesus ended the priesthood of Aaron-the Levitical priesthood which ministered the sacrifices first of the Tabernacle in the Wilderness and then the Temple in Jerusalem. (Luke 16:16 and Hebrews 7).
So if LDS claims that the Levitical priesthood needs to be restored, they are 1) calling Jesus a liar, and 2) claiming that they are still under the Law for righteousness rather than the atonement of Jesus upon the Cross of Calvary.
And you need to have your young men and boys of 13 and older engaged daily in the sacrifices upon the brazen altar.
The Melchizedek Priesthood belongs to Jesus alone. It is not transferable to ANYONE. He ministers from the Tabernacle not made with Human hands-Hebrews chapters 7&8 and 9:11 “But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come,with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.”
Genuine Christians have a new priesthood, the priesthood of believers which is a ROYAL priesthood, above that of the Levitical priesthood- 1 Peter 2:9,10 “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.”
So if Jesus declared the Levitical priesthood obsolete, and He alone qualifies to hold the Melchizedek priesthood, where do you get your authority?
If you would read the Book of Mormon or Jesus the Christ or any General Conference talk that speaks of Christ you would find that we believe in the Biblical Jesus. We’re all in this together my friend. Salvation – mine and yours – comes through Jesus Christ. The Biblical and Book of Mormon Christ are exactly the same. The Lord didn’t want the Book of Mormon to be divisive but incredibly inclusive. Read it with real intent and you will find the same Jesus. The saving, liberating, forgiving, healing Jesus.
Actually you don’t.
The Jesus of mormonism is a created being like the rest of us rather than being God the creator. The Jesus of Christianity is the same God who appeared to Moses in the burning bush; who created the heavens and the earth and all living things (John 8:58, John 1:1,3; John 1:14, Colossians 1:16,17, Hebrews 1:2)
The “god” of mormonism is an exalted man who was once like us rather than being God from eternity past to eternity future.
Larry every single word you have said is true. When I was a Mormon I got tired of spending my faith by defending my religion. Keep it up. It was people like you who persuaded me to be rational. I then left the church an had my records removed.
God Bless you Lang
Reverend, you are wasting your time. You said *I’m well equipped to debate ANY member of LDS*. This isn’t the desire of faithful LDS. We only desire to **talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.**
Listen – I will assume you are a good Christian who leads his congregation to the same source. So, give up the debating. We’re in this together. We only desire to lead all people to Jesus Christ. You don’t help to do that by being insulting.
Show you true colors Reverend and preach Christ with us. You can have your opinions but if our message and your message is good, why are you fighting us? Fight sin in your own congregation. Sin is the only enemy. And it is beaten with love. **By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another**.
I forgive you for insensitive comments and believe they are simply a result of your great passion for Christ. And I invite you to stand with us in this very difficult world to preach of Christ so that all may be filled with faith, hope, and charity.
Your friend and brother, Lee.
Sorry, but while I appreciate your offer, it simply isn’t true. I’ve interacted with 1000′s of LDS over many years and I know what is taught to those nice young men in their preparation for the mission field.
I’ve spoken at length with LDS bishops and Stake presidents.
We worship very different God’s and a very different Jesus.
You are certainly free in this country to have whatever belief system you wish to follow. But my accountability to the Lord is to present the hope that is in Christ Jesus, life in the Kingdom of God, and to defend the gospel against all who pervert it as LDS among others does.
I pray you come to know the real Jesus who created all things including Lucifer and the Father who is NOT someone of a physical body, but is Spirit (John 4:24); I pray that you come to know that the Blood of Jesus has delivered us from ALL sin and not just the sin of Adam. I pray that you come to know His truth that being born again is not baptism in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but is a spiritual rebirth, having the old person die with it’s sin nature and being transformed from the kingdom of the ruler of this world (satan) into the kingdom of the Son of His love (Colossians 1:13)
Now that’s the spirit Reverend! We are not too far off in our doctrine. I choose to see the majority of string similarities and not the few differences. I believe that is the way the same God who created you and me would have us do.
Thank you for your testimony. May the Lord continue to bless you as you seek to bring others unto Christ in love. You will be made powerful in doing so as you are honest and contrite in your effort, which I’m sure you will be. Thank you for dedicating your life to such a worthy cause.
Larry, I am glad you are here to tell me what I believe. NOT! We reject your “traditional” understanding of the trinity. The concept of the Trinity was made-up by men in the 4th century. It says that God is a being without body parts and passion, and that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost are the same being. These men came to one correct conclusion: the godhead is united in purpose, but they are 3 distinct personages. This is well documented in many passages of the Bible. A cult is often defined as a group that follows a man-made creed. Those who claim that Mormonism is a cult are often the same people who claim that the Nicean creed accurately represents the bible. The Nicean creed is truly a man-made doctrine. Mormonism is based on a restoration, which you are not able to understand because you are coming at it from a traditional (and I might add, incomplete) view of Christianity. We cannot expect you to understand the basic tenets of our faith because of this. God created man in his image. Period.
Further, the reality is that true biblical scholars (the kind that don’t enter into debates on websites like this one) actually have a great deal of respect for the tenets of our faith. You will be better served to study what they have to say about our church than to try to prove your point arguing with those of us on this site who are ill equipped to engage intellectually with you. Including myself.
FYI – this is a reply to Randy Neilsen
Mike – this is as simple as it was last time I commented to you. You have no faith. Your whole basis is based on information (not facts). And you leave no room for inspiration from the One true source of all knowledge and light and wisdom.
I, like Joseph Smith, have searched out the truth through many sources and found much fact and much fiction. And then, I have gone to our Heavenly Father for truth, by the power of His Spirit, not by flesh and blood – as Jesus pointed out that Peter received his testimony from the Father, not by flesh and blood, or in other words, from the words of man.
You are a liar or you are deceived. There are so many independent accounts of evidence that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a man of virtue, integrity, and a man of God, even a prophet.
I remind you of the words in Helaman 16:17 said by the wicked who would not believe because there weren’t enough facts (and there will never be enough facts alone to convert a single soul). They said: it is not reasonable that such a being as Christ shall come.\n
This is where you and any who belittle or mock are coming from. You ONLY rely on reason and so-called facts. But you have no faith. Faith takes trust and it takes great humility.
So, again, LDS never go out of there way to mock your beliefs EVEN WHEN THEY ARE AIMED TO MOCK US. So grow up. Your written word is so full of holes, foremost being that your only defense is mocking. This he said/she said stuff about whether Joseph Smith did this or didn’t will never cause you or I to win the discussion. THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST is a church of faith. Not naive, blind faith, but a doctrine and church that says: Search, ponder, and study and THEN pray. And the answer of all truth will come to any person who is full of faith, real intent, and humility.
You have got to be completely ignorant to not see your Santa Claus piece has perfect foundational application to belief in Christ, or anything that can’t be seen. So, my point is, you must have faith to believe in Christ and you must have faith to believe in Christ’s church as it has been restored.
Your best attack on the church is to defame the character of it’s leaders. Such can never be proven and this is why you rely on it. You completely disregard the millions of people across 180 years, varying cultures, and varying systems of belief who all willingly testify of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and of the living reality of Jesus Christ. And you disregard the many lone voices who have tried to prove the church wrong who have died and made no lasting impact and are no forgotten.
No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing…calumny may defame…but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent…til it has sounded in every ear.\n
Your words fall flat Mike. You despise and seek to tear down, you mock and your logic is flawed. The disciples of Christ will be bold but are always forgiving and full of love. This is how you may know a follower of Christ, that they love one another. And so again, I reach out to you, (as Brother Ziebarth, not Sister, so you may know where my love comes from) in the spirit of love. You have only mocked and derided the LDS faith and doctrine, but even still, His arms are stretched out to receive you in full forgiveness if you would desire to join His fold. Believe in Christ. Have faith in His ways. Rebuke the enemy of your soul, which is Satan and has no desire but to waste your time, ruin your life, and watch you be miserable. There is no light in your words or your tone and therefore I perceive you are not at peace and not happy. If you say otherwise, then God bless you to always be happy and full of joy and may you and yours be blessed in all things.
Your brother and friend. Lee
@ Lee:
SO telling facts makes me a liar and you sharing emotions (disguised as faith) makes you tell the truth?
. Like the one Muslims get for Muhammad, like the one Jews get about “knowing” that Christ has not come yet. They are all feelings, a feeling of certainly that has not bought forth the fruits it should. That is the thing about Mormons that Mormons dot understand: the rest of the world is ok with you saying: “we believe that Mormon was a…”, but your lingo of always straying into statements of fact: “I know that…” are offensive to the spiritual growth and to the living faith of others. You may know that Christ lived, and has lead you to knowing and the facts bear that fact. But please don’t wrap it all together with your blindfold.
I have faith, I understand faith, that does not make me a liar. I cannot, however lump all things that feel good into fact. Let me explain real faith to you: faith allows us to jump from one fact to another, it is the temporary leap we make until our faith is confirmed. Then after we have taken that leap we find that the thing we believed is true, a fact. Faith can be exercised to we have the ability to have bigger jumps, therefore coming to know greater and greater things. with me so far?
Ok. My faith in Jesus Christ (which I have) cannot be used to delete facts. IN fact everything my faith has taken me to has lead me to come closer to truth and to learn eternal “facts” (doctrines). One cannot use someone’s faith to delete facts. For example, if I tell you that if you believe that JS was a prophet and THEREFORE you must ignore the fact that he slept with children or married the wives of other men. I cannot change history with faith, I cannot change forensic evidence, I cannot ignore archeological finds. If faith does this, then it is not faith, it is exactly the opposite- blind faith. Blind faith prevents the spiritual, intellectual and emotional growth of an individual. Most Mormons rely on this type of faith, the old- I dunno nothin’, all i know is that the BOM is true and I have to do what the Prophet tells me and I go to heaven. This blind allegiance to men and his policies (as your church calls them) stops people from growing spiritually. This is the challenge that Christ had during his ministry, to overcome a church that was so distant from spiritual growth and focused blindly on authority, ceremony and rule following, which is exactly why the LDS church is dying out.
You claim that because a lot of Mormons have had an emotional experience, it makes it true. By that logic, Muslims are right because there are more of them and they generally feel stronger about their faith.
You say that you need faith to know Christ is real. You are on the right path there. Of course, you will receive a witness that he is, like the other millions of Christians around the world. The BOM, you feel, is fact. To what evidence has this conclusion gotten to?
Of course, faith brings forth a witness, evidence. You practice a correct principle and you get the fruits from it. BUT you cannot wrap Christ’s teachings and that church and claim that they are the same thing. Maybe one day- since we are being condescending to each other- you will do what the majority of LDS people have done, you will come to understand that the doctrine of Christ and his gospel is not equivalent to the LDS church. They are not one, or at this point even similar to even the original LDS faith. You feel you know and need to no longer wonder, without arriving at faith’s original destination: facts. As your BOM states in the book of ether: he needed faith no longer because he knew. Mormons almost take pride in not knowing “i believe and what what I am told and I am not proud so I dont need to understand or know”
please don’t feel sorry for me. I was a stake president for years in Seattle. I was a mission president in central America, I received my second anointing. So spare me the condescension of you just don’t understand, I feel sorry for you- routine. Also, go ahead and spare me the you are deceived, one day we might take you back routine. I have given that to dozens of people over the years, feeling the same feelings that now feel for me.
If you feel that JS was a prophet, then great! but you can’t pick and choose which doctrines, practices and historical events you believe about him. You have to take the whole man, and all his teachings. Same with Brigham Young. You emotionally believe that the BOM is the word of God and has brought you closer to your version of Christ? fantastic! but then you have to admit the lack of evidence of the book’s claims about its origin. You have to take the whole thing, it cant just be feelings and tears about the latest feelings and tears, you owe yourself more than that. This post by Ryan was about Mormon, who pleaded that people decide that something is true and then pray about it, of course they will get a warm and fuzzy feeling, like that one I have for Santa
Mike – you’re not working off of facts. Words written are not facts. There is so much circumstantial variables, especially in historical instances, where we simply do not have all the information nor the understanding of all things to consider. But again, we can go back and forth all day long with me speaking good and you speaking evil of Joseph Smith.
I’ve researched. I’ve read many, many accounts. I am not going off of a warm fuzzy. I have taken all accounts AND feelings of all kinds into consideration, and I know what I know. And since you think you do as well, I will let my words of love and your words of mocking stand as the ultimate witness.
Mike – read this. Especially “Many persons who have joined the Latter-day Saints have run well for a season; but, understanding not that the Gospel is a progressive work with those who honor it, they have turned away from the faith—charged the Saints with inconsistency, but yet claim to believe in what they call “ancient Mormonism.”
And, “It is the living oracles that lead the people of God.”
You seek to defame prophets. Yes, the are imperfect men, but when they speak by the Holy Ghost, their word is the most relevant word of the Lord.
No matter what was written, when Noah spoke about the coming flood, nothing else written that may contradict his current, spoken word was relevant. When the Spirit spoke to Peter to take the gospel to the Gentiles, it did not matter what was previously understood as doctrine, the current word of God was made known to this chief Apostle and the gospel was taken to the Gentiles.
My testimony is in the living Christ who gives His current word to a current prophet. Nothing else matters. Whatever President Monson speaks I will follow, no because I worship him or think he infallible, but because I know we have a modern day Noah. And this is the crux of the whole matter – the living Christ speaking to a living prophet. And all who want to defame the character of prophets do so at their own peril. I’m not threatening you, I’m warning you. I’m sure you don’t care. But if you don’t I still will. And the arms of Christ are still stretched out to you all the day long.
The other issue here is that Satan has always stirred up the people against the living prophet. The greatest Prophet was Christ. You say you believe in Him but a great indication is how you treat the living prophet today. If you belittle him, you would have belittled Christ. And this isn’t so hard to believe when the very people who claimed to believe the written word were so blind as to not see Jesus for who He really was.
We don’t believe in Christ because He taught nice things. We believe in Him at all costs. We see Him as the meek and lowly Lamb. We are ok with the fact that He wasn’t flashy and entertaining to behold. We’re ok that “there was no beauty that we should desire him”. We believe in Him – if we truly do – because the Holy Ghost has borne witness to our eternal spirit that He is the Son of God, the very Christ.
And so it is today. We’re ok if President Monson shows the foibles of man. We’re ok if it’s not popular to believe in a prophet. We’re ok if some deride him and belittle the positions he takes and the doctrines he teaches. Why? Because the Holy Ghost can bear witness to us that he is God’s mouthpiece again on the earth. He used Noah then, he can use man again today.
If you mock the living oracles today, you would have in Noah’s day or in Christ’s day. And if you say you wouldn’t you say the exact same useless defense of the scribes and Pharisees used to Jesus: “If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.” (Matt 23:30) In other words, they said if they would have lived in earlier days they would have believed in a living prophet. But yet, here they were as utter hypocrites in the very days of the Savior, not believing in Him, not seeing Him for who He was. Why? Because they would rather believe in the written word more than the living oracles. This is a slippery, dangerous road.
As it was in Jesus’ day, so it is today. Your defense has been uttered many times before. You say you would have believed in Christ if you lived then, but you cannot believe in His prophets today. Don’t be so blind to find your company among the hypocrites. It will only bring you misery.
Thomas S. Monson is a living oracle of God, a living prophet, an imperfect man used by the Lord to do His perfect work. Joseph Smith was the same. And these are not, then who is? The Lord has always used prophets. So where are they today? They are right here in Christ’s restored church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And you may not like that. You may not believe it. But if you don’t then you would not have believed in the humble Jesus of Nazareth who claimed to be a THE prophet, THE Savior, and THE Son of God. Now, those were very high claims, and yet, it was true.
To all I say: Come to the true fold of God and believe. Harden not your hearts against the living word of God. Read it from our last General Conference and judge if the words of President Monson are not given from the Savior of the World, the Prince of Peace, for our salvation today if we just will humble ourselves enough to believe.
I meant to paste this link: http://jod.mrm.org/7/149
Mormons reject the “traditional” understanding of the trinity. The concept of the Trinity was made-up by men in the 4th century. It says that God is a being without body parts and passion, and that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost are the same being. These men came to one correct conclusion: the godhead is united in purpose, but they are 3 distinct personages. This is well documented in many passages of the Bible. A cult is often defined as a group that follows a man-made creed. Those who claim that Mormonism is a cult are often the same people who claim that the Nicean creed accurately represents the bible. The Nicean creed is truly a man-made doctrine. So I ask you, who is the cult?