The 9-11 nuts sprout again…

Cannot believe I am seeing, on Facebook, multiple links to conspiracy theories about the 9-11 attacks, mostly that government engineered them to get us involved in a war, or something.

All sorts of idiotic doubts are cast about, yet again. Does nobody realize this is the US Government we are talking about? That gang of yokels can’t legislate a light bulb and keep it secret, much less build the Twin Towers with the forethought that, someday, it might be handy to demolish them and kill 3,000 people to further American domination of the world, so let’s install all these explosives around the structural members, just in case?

Anyway, Popular Mechanics, in 2005, did a great job of debunking the whole thing, although we all know (wink wink) who’s behind them.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842

 

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61 Responses to The 9-11 nuts sprout again…

  1. Myth Buster says:

    Care to debate 9/11 with me in public Charlie?
    Jet Fuel cannot melt structural steel.
    Bldg #7 fell at Free Fall acceleration without being hit by anything; the BBC even reported it fell 23 minutes before it actually fell.
    757 aircraft do not punch holes through 6 1.5ft thick titanium cable reinforced concrete walls at the Pentagon.
    I’m calling you out on your 9/11 stance, man up or shut up.
    Where and when?

    • Mikee says:

      Jet fuel doesn’t have to melt steel, it only has to weaken it enough for the steel to lose integrity, which happens around 750 degrees, well below jet fuel’s burn point.

      The rest of your points have been debunked thoroughly, though you probably still believe that this conspiracy exists, even though it would take millions of people to pull it off.

      Now I’m starting to understand why nearly everyone mocks your opinions. You wouldn’t know a fact if it jumped off the ground and bit your face off.

  2. Howard Ratcliffe says:

    I wrote the previous comment. Charlie, we do know “wink wink” who wrote the Popular Mechanics piece. Benjamin Chertoff, the cousin of Mitt Romney Homeland Security adviser Rabbi Michael Chertoff wrote it.
    Pretty psychic of him to have the entire FEMA contingent in NYC on 9/10/2001 eh?
    Looking forward to our debate, it will be interesting I assure you.

  3. Charles Trentelman says:

    all that idiocy is dealt with in the article, howard. ie–chartoff is “cousin” to that writer only if you go back to the 19th century, steel doesn’t need to melt, just get weaker, and so on.

    The rest of your accusations are similary debunked already. If yu deny the data, there’s nothing to talk about. Feel free to go stand on a street corner and debate yourself, however.

    • Howard Ratcliffe says:

      You are a Coward Charlie.

      • Charles Trentelman says:

        sticks and stones…

        • Howard Ratcliffe says:

          Like I said Charlie, put up or shut up. 3000 murdered people deserve that much

          • Neal Cassidy says:

            Don’t do it Howard/MythBuster. Once you leave the safety and security of your secure bunker in Huntsville anything can happen. If you announce what corner you will be standing at a highly organized and motivated group of 33rd degree masons will kidnap you. For your safety you should reteat back into obscurity and not post on the S-E board. It’s the only way to keep you safe to spread your message to the people. Although if you do go out war your tinfoil hat. That way crowds of your admirers will rush to protect you from the people who want to put you under clinical observation and force you to take so called healing medicine to cure your misunderstood mental condition. Your enemies are everywhere. Stay hidden and silent. That is the only way to remain free.

        • Bones says:

          In reply to Neal Cassidy: You are one ignorant,self-centered individual that will eventually trip on your own tongue! you should be thrown to the lions for the absurd comment you made to howard/myth.

          • Neal Cassidy says:

            I I was protecting Howard/MythBuster from the forces out to get him. After all he has a unique point of view found nowhere else. Without his input we would not know that there are secret groups of 33rd degree masons roaming the land out to destroy us.

  4. Adam Syed says:

    Sorry you’re still in 2005, Charles.

    David Ray Griffin thoroughly demolished the Popular Mechanics yellow journalism piece in 2007 with his meticulous and highly footnoted book, “Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory.”

    First and foremost, it was not the “truthers” who were making the “steel melted” claim. It was the official myth makers right from the beginning who made this claim, and only modified it after the truthers pointed it out. For example, there is this 9/12/01 BBC article which says “fire reaches 800 C – hot enough to melt steel floor supports.”

    Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1540044.stm

    That article is called “How the World Trade Centre Fell.”

    It also features this quote from “structural engineer” Charles Wise: “The columns would have melted, the floors would have melted and eventually they would have collapsed one on top of each other.”

    So it was not the “truthers” who “mistakenly” thought that the steel had melted. I could find a ton more examples from official sources if I had more time, like the BBC article above. I remember a NOVA special saying that the temperature inside the towers reached conditions rivaling a nuclear power plant. So how disingenuous and deceitful of the Popular Mechanics editors.

    Please move beyond 2005, Charles.

    PM’s article falls flat on its face in a number of other regards too. It claimed, in the introduction, to be apolitical, no politics here, just facts. Then, laughably, the foreword was written by none other than GOP darling John McCain, who said: “Blaming some conspiracy within our government mars the memories of the victims…” Yes, non-political indeed.

    Please move beyond 2005, Charles.

    Some more demolishing of the PM article:

    Popular Mechanics claims that “hundreds of witnesses saw a Boeing 757 hit the building.” They do not seem to have been to interested in analyzing the believability of some of these statements, as David Griffin has done in his 2007 critique. PM quotes structural engineer Allyn Kilsheimer, who says: “It was absolutely a plane… I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them… I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I stood on a pile of debris that we later discovered contained the black box… I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?”

    We almost don’t need Griffin’s help in realizing the absurdity of this statement: “But this is hardly ‘okay.’ Besides the fact that few people, aside from pathologists, would pick up body parts, the tail section of a Boeing 757 is over 20 feet long and quite heavy.” Also, I might add, if he held the tail section in his hand, why didn’t we see a tail section in the photographs immediately following the event?

    A more disturbing aspect of this eyewitness’ account, however, concerns the editing of his words between PM’s March 2005 magazine article and the book which appeared in the summer of 2006. In March 2005, Kilsheimer reportedly said “and I found the black box.” Researchers, however, noted that the two black boxes were found, according to the official story, by two firefighters three days later. As Griffin says: “At what school of journalistic ethics did the PM authors learn that, if part of a statement you have quoted from one of your star witnesses turns out to be false (‘I found the black box’), you may simply change that part of the statement (to ‘I stood on a pile of debris that we later discovered contained the black box’)?”

    Griffin goes on to say: “This modification is especially interesting in light of PM’s James Meigs’ complaint that few of the documents put out by alternative conspiracy theorists ‘handle factual material with enough care to pass muster at a high-school newspaper.’ Once again, the official conspiracy theorists are found to illustrate the very sins of which they accuse their opponents.”

    Please move beyond 2005, Charles.

  5. Adam Syed says:

    Oh, speaking of moving beyond 2005:

    There is a new documentary called “9/11 Explosive Evidence: Experts Speak Out.” Colorado’s PBS station has aired it in their pledge drives, multiple times now, and they are featuring it on their site. It is currently the no. 2 most watched video on PBS’ entire global site.

    http://video.cpt12.org/video/2270078138

    The film features over 40 experts in high-rise architecture, structural engineering, metallurgy, chemistry, physics, explosives, and controlled demolition, including a former employee for Controlled Demolition Inc.

  6. Adam Syed says:

    Oh, one last word:

    My paragraph beginning “Popular Mechanics claims that “hundreds of witnesses saw a Boeing 757 hit the building.”” and onward, is referring to the Pentagon, not the World Trade Center.

    • Howard Ratcliffe says:

      Hi Adam, nice work here. Here is some oddities about Flt #77. Chuck Burlingame participated in a Pentagon Drill called MasCal (Mass Casualties) simulating a B-757 hitting the Pentagon and later ended up as Captain of Flt #77.
      On 9/11/1941 the Pentagon cornerstone was laid directly on the 77th Meridian and built exactly 77ft high.
      Pictures taken before the roof collapse show a J-85 engine (2ft compressor disc diameter) on the lawn, not something used on a B-757, but used on Cruise Missiles.
      A similar thing happened at Church and Murray St (right across the street from the un-damaged St Paul’s Church) where a CFM-56 engine core used on B-737-300 aircraft was found; a bit odd since AA#11 was listed as a B-767 using engines 3 times that size.

      • Lasvegasrichard says:

        As someone who has actually made jet engine parts for the cruise missile … There is no 2 foot compressor rotor or even a 2 foot stator .

  7. Bones says:

    Wink wink, you are scared to speak the truth charlie! Scared…..I totally understand.

  8. packsoldier says:

    You’re totally off base, Chuck. Everyone knows that the Twin Towers were destroyed because George W Bush was insubordinate to our reptilian overlords.

  9. Charles Trentelman says:

    Personally I blame the Illuminati — World War II didn’t work out the way they wanted, Global Warming has been completely misunderstood, and all they really wanted to do was get to New York early and get tickets to “Cats.”

    Somehow the pilots of the planes misunderstood their directions and here we are….

  10. Howard Ratcliffe says:

    Charlie, 2 questions:
    Edna Clinton is seen waving from the hole left by the aircraft hitting the North Tower for 30 minutes. How is this possible with white hot steel around her?
    BBC reporter Jane Standley reported Bldg #7 “Solomon Bldg” collapsed 25 minutes before it actually fell; a picture of Bldg #7 intact can be seen over her left shoulder. How did she know this would happen especially since Bldg #7 was not hit by anything?
    I’ll have a few more questions after you answer these simple ones. Or will you just hide from the truth slinging “9/11 Nut” phrases around?
    Man up Charlie, you opened this door

  11. Howard Ratcliffe says:

    Charlie, you are an absolute buffoon. Here is the book I wrote on 9/11 in 2004 with a few updates since.
    Refute any of it if you can; 3000 murdered people deserve that
    http://www.theresnothingnew.org/index/mn40674/9112001

  12. Charles Trentelman says:

    From Howard’s book. I really think we can all agree that this says it all:

    Astrologically, Saturn and Pluto were in opposition on 9/11/2001. Saturn (Cronos) represents Structure, form and Material Power. Pluto represents Destruction. Saturn was in Gemini which represents the “Twin Towers” aka Castor and Pollux; Remmus and Rommulus; Horus and Set or Jacob and Esau. Pluto was in Saggitarius which represents Transformation by Foreign influence, hence Arabs were blamed.
    The Twin Towers represented the Twin Pillars found in every Masonic Lodge “Jachin and Boaz”. 3000 years ago Israel’s 13th Judge Samson killed 3000 Philistines through self immolation by pulling the down Twin Pillars at the Temple of Dagon (one of 77 infernal names of Satan) Ref Judges 16:27-29; 3000 people were killed in the Twin Towers. Civil War (Judges 20) was the result then and will be the result soon; the rise of 330 Mason Dick Armey’s “Tea Party” is no accident.

  13. Howard Ratcliffe says:

    No, Bldg #7 was under the flight path and was not hit by anything. WTC#1 was hit by a B-737; a CFM-56 engine was found at Church and Murray St which cannot be explained by a B-767-200. WTC#2 was hit by a B-767-300.

    • Bones says:

      Howard, you won’t get Chuck to admit he is wrong. Chuck works for a mass media newspaper and he CAN ONLY believe what he is told to believe, he wrote this off 5 years ago, because of an article in Popular Mechanics which is Hearst family owned and they control alot of information i.e. newspapers,magazines etc. So give up on him or they will commit you to psycho-babble land.

  14. Charles Trentelman says:

    this doesn’t explain Pluto, Howard.

  15. Howard Ratcliffe says:

    rls Did you get my reply below? Bldg #7 was not hit and collapsed at 5:20PM from professional demolition. Larry Silverstein admitted on PBS documentary aired on 9/11/2002 he “Pulled” the building, meaning he intentionally set off pre-set demolition explosives.
    No plane went down in Shankesville either. Commercial aircraft do not burrow into 30ft diameter holes and leave no forensic evidence.
    The section Charlie chose is 1 paragraph out of a 100pg book dealing with Planetary Astrology aka Sabian Astrology. It’s a bit strange but nonetheless, July 4, 1776 was also chosen based on a rare Planetary astrological event by Ben Franklin and Mason/Astrologer Ebenezer Sibly.
    Keep and open mind and the truth will be found

    • Bones says:

      I believe you Howard, but you wont get chuck to deviate from what he MUST believe, he is going to continue to make fun of you and make you look stupid, at least he is not a Republican!

      • Neal Cassidy says:

        Chrlie Trentleman does not need to make Howard/MythBuster look stupid. Howard/MythBuster does a good job of exposing himself to ridicule and scorn just by posting a conspiracy comment and theory to everything ever published by the S-E. People are laughing at him not with him.

  16. Howard Ratcliffe says:

    Point taken Bones, I’ve asked Charlie to comment on Edna Clinton waving from the North Tower for 30 minutes standing in the hole the airplane left.
    I’ve asked him to comment on BBC reporter Jane Standley reporting Bldg #7 had fallen 23 minutes before it fell.
    Maybe he can tell us why Ryan Air #441a B-727 was chartered by the Saudi Arabian Royal family to take 25 members of the bin Laden family from LA to Houston to Orlando to Washington DC to Boston to Paris on Sept 20th.
    This all makes me sick to think of.

  17. Bill Wade says:

    Charles, please tell me that these guys are kidding. No one is that stupid…are they?

    • Neal Cassidy says:

      I will not comment on whether or not these people are that stupid. But they did not have to worry aboout anyone in school copying their answers on tests.

    • Brent Glines says:

      Bill, just keep these posts in the back of your mind for future reference. That way, if you ever see Howard commenting on anything else, and you are unsure if he knows what he is talking about, think back to this thread. For anyone who has been paying attention, Howard has been making a fool of himself here for a very long time, so it is to your advantage to pass over anything he writes, unread.

      The utility of threads like this is that it serves to identify buffoons. To my buffoon list, in addition to Howard/Myth Buster I can now add Adam Syed and Bones. Useful information, indeed.

      • Howard Ratcliffe says:

        Well Brent, Why not Man up and debate Adam or me. I offered “Popular Mechanics” Charlie the chance but his smug disregard for 3000 murdered people is astonishing. We can film it and post your incredible Physics insights on U-Tube for all to see

        • Brent Glines says:

          Oh, Howard. You’re doing such a fine job of making a fool of yourself, why should I interfere?

          Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. — Napoleon Bonaparte

  18. Jay H says:

    The truth is already out. Lead by Osama bin Laden and other extremists, a team of men dedicated to their own desire to commit homicide of Americans on a large scale whilst also committing suicide, hijacked airplanes and flew them into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and – I’m certain much to their disappointment, a field in Pennsylvania.

    Leave Charlie alone until you have undeniable proof. The following do not constitute “undeniable proof”:
    * astrological interpretations;
    * conflicting reports by engineers;
    * contested times of reports; and,
    * opposing first-hand accounts.

    An assertion made without undeniable proof is easily dismissed.

  19. rls says:

    – howard — so you’re saying each of the two towers was hit, bldg 7 was not hit, and no plane crashed in shankesville? — what about the pentagon? — and are you saying the twin towers did not collapse as a result of the planes hitting them? –

  20. mikeasell says:

    Howard,
    I don’t know if medications you are taking or medications that you need to be taking, but you are nuts. You do not have the slightest clue on how the research process, logic or the scientific method works. Stringing along run on sentences filled with AKA or “” only shows that you have weak mind with the inability to think logically. You abuse logic to try to make a point, let me break it down for you.

    You like to use ad hominem in your case, the abusive analogy and affirming the consequent- example: If the steel in the twin towers cannot be melted by jet fuel, then it must have been explosives and therefore it must have been the government and therefore they must have planted it before the building was finished and therefore….only explosives can break a building that strong, the building was broken, so it was explosives.
    One of your most awful abuses of logic comes from the analogical fallacy.Example: As out government grows like a tumor, it should like any malignancy, be destroyed or it will spread, like any other tumor radiation is the only way to destroy a tumor, so only a nuclear war will fix our country. Jacob and Esau are just like the twin towers, really?
    Apriorism- You use after the fact facts to go back and change and build your principles and theories, somehow diluting yourself into thinking that you were right, but being careful to leave every idea so vague and large that you are always proven right.
    Argumentum ad antiquatum- tying that somehow because something in the past happened a certain way, it will always be that way.This is false way of presenting facts. Your grandfather never took, psych meds and neither did your dad, they were just fine, therefore you will not take your meds and everything will be fine.
    Argumentum ad Bacalum- you are very adept at this one. When reason fails you, and it did long ago, you use force as a persuasion tool. So you dont want to debate me? well you must not care about the 3,000 that died. You must want the US to be destroyed, if you don’t agree with me! abusive on so many levels. I feel bad for your family as this is a typical sign of a father that abuses his children and his wife, at least emotionally.
    Bifurication. Where to start, you live off of this. This is the white and black options. Well if it was not jet fuel, it MUST have been government planted explosives. How can that lady be looking out the window with hot steel surrounding her? it clearly proves that the attack was falsified, I mean you have photographic proof of what did not happen, right?
    Circulus in probando- I know that I am right because my book proves I am, how can I know my book is correct? because I wrote, and round and round we go. A plane that goes down and burrows 30 feet doesn’t not just leave no forensic evidence, this is evidence that it did not go down.
    You abuse, among others the plurium interrogationum. where you put together long, long, sentences with multiple questions that by attempting to answer one you tihnk that you win the argument because you wont allow someone to pull out the entire string of your craziness. Is your stupidity inborn? if you say yes, we are all correct, if you say no, then you just became stupid. These never ending phrases you use are a feeble attempt at doing just this.
    Concealed quantification: Everybody that believes that 9/11 is a government attack is a genius- well, some may be because they are stupid, others misguided, others because they only read facts from the internet. maybe not all are that smart. You use this to make your arguments stronger, but anyone with a half brain will know that you are a fool…you see I just did it.
    well there are about 12 more logical fallacies that you violate on a constant basis and therefore preclude you from convincing anyone that your opinions are in fact right. I will not list the rest because I am out of time for today, my lunch hour is over. But rest assured that should someone with your limited skills run into someone who understand logic, or a psychiatrist or reality, you my my little crazy friend will be embarrassed beyond your ability to recover.

    I will however leave you with a sampler of you implacable literary style: Howard has 6 letters, “6″ is not the perfect number, therefore, Howard in not right, 7 which would mean perfecting “being right”, you argue that the attack did not take place on America, 7 letters, perfection, which was founded in July, the 7th month, again perfection. The 7th book in the bible, Joshua, 6th verse, 6th word is Nun, Howard has 6 letters, the imperfect, the word Nun in the 6th word, Howard is a Nun. 7 years since the attack until the 7th moon of diamonds cast her spell, America 7 letters. America is perfect, #7, Joshua speaks of the seven trumpets on verse 8, further proof that I am right, all sequential, Howard had been wrong 6 times, he must be off 6 medications, in fact he is 666, the devil.

  21. Howard Ratcliffe says:

    rls, Correct, the aircraft hitting the Twin Towers had nothing to do with their collapse.
    As to the Pentagon. a B-757 cannot punch a 16ft diameter hole through 6 separate 1.5ft thick reinforced concrete walls; only a projectile with sufficient inertia such as a uranium core bunker buster would be able to do that.

    • rls says:

      – howard — so i am forced to conclude that you believe:

      a) somebody packed explosives into the twin towers when they were built, and nobody noticed
      b) somebody packed explosives into building 7 when it was built, and nobody noticed
      c) somebody planted a mammoth bomb in the side of the pentagon, and nobody noticed
      d) flight 93 never crashed in shankesville, and so it must have landed safely somewhere else — which begs the question, what happened to all the people who were actually ON flight 93 but who never returned home?
      i don’t know, howard — i think you have all the makings of a hollywood script writer, but an investigative reporter? not so much.

      • Howard Ratcliffe says:

        a. No, The Twin Towers had Thermate (not Thermite) explosives installed on outside columns between July and Sept 11; Marvin Bush and his uncle Wirt Walker had control over security. A demolition nuclear device was put in basement to take out the center webbed support structure; impossible to do with Thermate cutting charges.
        b. No, Bldg #7 ditto.
        c. No, no bomb at the Pentagon; Missile hit it
        d. Flt #93 landed in Cleveland, it was recorded on Satellite photos, in the Tower log on a flight attendant log book, by Mayor White and UAL on Network TV.

        Don’t assume anything rls, stick to the facts.

        • ctrentelman says:

          so the folks from flight 93 are, in reality, just stuck in the waiting room in Cleveland.

          OK, that at least makes sense.

          • Howard Ratcliffe says:

            No Charlie, they off loaded next to Dal #1989 on the north side of the field as the south side commercial terminal was evacuated on foot. Cleveland Tower has stated this but if you prefer to believe in magical cell phone calls from 35,000ft don’t let me stop you.
            If you get a chance to answer anything about Ryan Air #441 flying the bin Laden family out, BBC reporting Bldg #7 collapsed before it did or Edna Clinton waving for help from the North Tower in the hole left by the airplane let me know.
            In the old days when a person called another person a liear like I’m calling you they stood up to the challenge, but not cowards like you I guess. Slighter away and we’ll talk soon

          • ctrentelman says:

            so after they got on flight 1989 where did they go? Maybe they’re still in line at the tsa?

          • Howard Ratcliffe says:

            http://www.thepowerhour.com/news2/cleveland_flight93.htm

            The DVD “Loose Change” has this information as well. DAL #1989 Pax were bussed to the commercial terminal after deplaning.
            Charlie, you are the most flip, cowardly, ignorant person I have seen.

          • ctrentelman says:

            but where did they go then, howard?

            by the way, the whole flight 1989 thing has been conclusively shown to be a myth — but of course we know the government is spreading that rumor, so we can discount it.

            but where are those folks, Howard? Where did flight 1989 take them?

          • rls says:

            i was going to ask that question, charlile, but you beat me to it … thanks

          • rls says:

            … editorial correction — sorry i misspelled your name, charlie –

          • ctrentelman says:

            hey, i’m a professional, gotta be quick to beat me.

            Can you believe I get paid for this nonsense?

          • ctrentelman says:

            just to interject a little reality into the situation, not that that will make any difference: http://911myths.com/index.php/Delta_1989

          • Neal Cassidy says:

            Certain that they are connected to the missing tourists on the SS Minow. They just went on a 3 hour tour. They are all on the same deserted island waiting to be rescued.

  22. Kim Roe says:

    “We have always been at war with Oceania…”

    I don’t know what’s real anymore, watching TV. Colbert’s “truthiness” is pretty much it. We have the technology to manipulate any image and promote it as fact, then it’s on to the next story, usually one about a cute animal.

    However, beyond a shadow of a doubt, I do know I need a Lexus and slabs of greasy meat covered with slabs of greasy bacon and a new smart phone. That’s the real message.

  23. Brent Glines says:

    Well, speak of 9-11 nuts, and they appear. For once, Charles, you have my sympathy.

  24. Ed Brady says:

    Makes more sense than a lot of the comments here. :-)

  25. Stephen M. Cook says:

    Damn you flower, you ain’t no locomotive?
    Fly away dark moon. ~ Illuminati Aphorism, attributed to Narlathotep the Inscrutable

  26. Neal Cassidy says:

    I am not Neal Humphrey. But being seen in public with you would bring my reputation down to your level. It’s called guilt by association. By the way, do you make your own tinfoil hats or is there a commercial outlet?

    • Howard Ratcliffe says:

      1. Edna Clinton waved for help from the hole left by Flt #11 for 30 minutes. How could the jet fuel have melted asbestos covered structural steel and not burn her?
      BBC reporter Jane Standley reported Bldg #7 had collapsed 23 minutes before the 47 story steel frame building that was not hit by anything actually did collapse. What script was she reading from?
      3 Ryan Air #441 was chartered by the Saudi Royal Family and picked up the bin Laden family in Los Angeles, Houston, Orlando, Washington DC and Boston before flying them to Paris. How did they get FAA approval to do this after bin Laden was already being accused of the event?
      4. Why has Osama bin Laden never been placed in the FBI Most Wanted List in connection with 9/11?
      5. How does 10,000 gallons of Kerosene melt 1 Million tons of asbestos covered structural steel and vaporize 2 million tons of concrete?

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