Tea Party aims at Bennett, shoots self in foot

Just in passing, Judson Phillips, the head of teapartynation.com and one of the self-proclaimed leaders of the movement that is pillorying Bob Bennett, was on the Washington Post’s chat today.

His disdain for anyone who disagreed with him, his amazing ability to ignore facts and twist history, were awesome to behold.

But don’t take my word for it, check out the chat yourself by clicking here: (click!)

A sample: It seems I, as a moderate, am not worth of his consideration because I don’t hold core beliefs. Liberals, on the other hand, are not patriotic because they do hold core beliefs but they are wrong.

Really, amazing. It is a wonder his brain doesn’t explode. And people in this so-called movement wonder why people like me consider them nuts.

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20 Responses to Tea Party aims at Bennett, shoots self in foot

  1. George says:

    Man, you aren’t kidding. I followed that chat today with a sincere desire to figure out why otherwise perfectly sane friends and family were flirting with the whole Tea Party thing. Not only did Phillips verify pretty much all negative connotations I had regarding TP, I’m now question that “otherwise perfectly sane” assumption. Yikes.

  2. George says:

    sorry, “I’m now questionING”

  3. Owain says:

    I followed your link, read through it, and didn’t see anything terribly objectionable. Instead of a blanket statement about “his amazing ability to ignore facts and twist history”, give me a specific example of something you find particularly egregious, and let’s discuss it.

  4. Dovie says:

    I made the following post the other day (below) and I felt kind of bad afterwards, as actually doing this would force Nicole to be a nasty judgmental, holier-than-thou POS. The problem is that’s how she bills herself and I replied in like.

    Do you really believe your temple work will do more to get your ancestors into heaven than their own lives? How many in your ward do you think REALLY believe that? Are you REALLY sure that you will have a physical body and not be a spirit? These things are not formally equivocal in the Mormon religion. Unless you truly believe every single one of the \little things\ I am sick of these people telling me they \stand up for their beliefs\. Only about 2 % of Mormons really do that, and they are obsessive compulsive nuts.

    It also bugs me that they portray themselves as suffering tremendous hardships due to their diligence – white republican Mormon in Utah? Really?

    The worst of this batch seem to be in the Tea Party – the Tea Party is James Dobson fundamentalist Neocons. Foxnews converted the Bushies into Tea people the day after the election. Why in Gods name would anybody listen to the people who couldn’t see anything wrong with the Bush administration? (The local leader, apparently, is the son of Layton’s own Mega Church, who they present as a poor, regular guy with no support and unambitious motives).

    I consider the election of Obama to have been grassroots. The Dems wanted Hilary – who do you think was so powerful they conspired to put Obama in office? Like him or not, he proves the people still matter.

    Anyway, this was what I said to Nicole and I recognize what’s wrong with the picture. I wonder if she does.

    Nicole – I have a similar history and have attended several churches. My belief is that God is pretty much equally present. It seems far too much of an intelectual compromise (or lie) to swear I believe Mormons are the one & only cat’s meow.

    My life would be easier if I went along for the potluck, too. And my kids lives.

    This is so typical – as soon as you guys drive off everybody who won’t swear you’re in the best group ever – you back right off and try to define yourselves as rebels.

    If you choose to be a sheep, then stand on your hind legs and at least be a sheep.

  5. Owain says:

    “The worst of this batch seem to be in the Tea Party – the Tea Party is James Dobson fundamentalist Neocons.”

    Got any examples (links) regarding why you consider them to be the worst?

  6. ctrentelman says:

    owain — OK, he was asked if obama had lowered income taxes. This is a straight yes or no and Obama has, with the concent of congress, lowered taxes. Yours are lower, so were mine.

    so, yes, would be the correct answer.

    His answer was “no.”

    When asked how that could be he said that Obama had failed to extend the Bush tax cuts. Since those tax cuts do not expire until next year (a) Obama hasn’t failed to extend them yet, and (b) why is it Obama’s job to extend Bush’s tax cuts anyway?

    Bush and his supporters put the 10-year limit on his tax cuts in a cynical attempt (which apparently has worked) to make the total cost of the cuts look less and THEN hopefully saddle his successor with the job of extending the cuts and, thus, be responsible for even more debt from the revenue the tax cuts will deny the government.

    From your attitude, I’d say the strategy worked — somehow bush’s irresponsible and cynical move to cut taxes and them make someone else responsible for them has worked. I might note that Bush failed to worry about those tax cuts even when the nation became saddled with two wars. He also kept the cost of those two wars “off budget” as so-called “emergency” appropriations, hiding their true costs, to a certain extent.

    And, in point of fact, Obama has suggested extending the cuts for people who make less than $250,000 a year while letting them expire, to some extent, on those who make more. So his blanket statement that obama hasn’t extended the cuts ignores Obama’s clear goals, as well.

    Since I’m sure you make more than $250 K a year, I am sorry for you, but then again, those in the higher brackets did benefit more from the cuts, so what goes around comes around. Frankly, I wish I had to pay taxes on $250K a year.

  7. Owain says:

    Ah, here is an up to day projection on Obama’s deficits on the same page I linked. For your reader’s convenience, here is the current data.
    http://blog.heritage.org/2010/02/05/past-deficits-vs-obamas-deficits-in-pictures/

  8. Owain says:

    Oh, and I was right, the up to date data is FAR worse.

  9. Charles Trentelman says:

    owain — you said you wanted to discuss his specific misstatements of fact. I gave you one. Yur answer is to list “obma’s” deficit?

    Not sure how that follows.

    However, if it is deficits you are concerned with, and I think we all agree that no amount of cutting so-called “fraud, waste and abuse” can ever reduce the deficit much, and cutting a trillion dollars out of the spending budget would ruin the economy by putting quite literally millions of people out of work, I presume that you agree in the need for some sort of way to raise government revenue by higher taxes, ie-not doing away with the Bush tax increase that Bush so carefully planned and advocated and legislated?

  10. Owain says:

    “owain — you said you wanted to discuss his specific misstatements of fact. I gave you one. Yur answer is to list “obma’s” deficit?”

    I spent, what, 5 or 6 paragraphs talking about taxes, and you think my answer is the deficit? It seems that someone is not paying attention here.

    I am entirely willing to concede that you are correct, Phillips’ answer with respect to current income taxes was in error. I suspect he has a preoccupation with trends going forward, so perhaps it’s understandable. His worry over the direction taxation is taking is justified, as well as the other worries voiced by the Tea Party movement in general, which was what prompted my post in the first place over your comment how “people in this so-called movement wonder why people like me consider them nuts.” It would seem that people in this movement have valid fears.

    However, I think that we can agree that taxes and spending are closely related. Indeed, they are two sides of the same coin. It’s hard to talk about one without considering the other.

    I fully agree that cutting ‘fraud waste and abuse’ will not solve the deficit problem, although that is a good start. I do NOT agree that that there is a need for higher taxes. Reduced spending, reduced government, and entitlements brought under control seems like a better approach than increasing taxes in the teeth of a recession.

  11. Owain says:

    “cutting a trillion dollars out of the spending budget would ruin the economy by putting quite literally millions of people out of work.”

    There is a fallacy in your argument. It presupposes that that trillion dollars wouldn’t be used to provide jobs in the private sector, and that only the government can make good use of that money to provide jobs.

    The goverment provides nothing that isn’t taken away from someone else, and if you think the government can do ANYTHING with greater efficiency that the private sector, you don’t understand how government works very well. By definition, since it is not necessary for goverment to show a profit for their efforts, there is no incentive for effectiveness in goverment programs. The greatest incentive in government programs is to grow ever larger government programs. If the government fails in a program, they simply throw more tax dollars at it, and double down on the failure. Not a recipe for peak efficiency.

    I submit that the best possible place for any old trillion dollars there might be lying around would best be spent in the private sector, and as far away from government as can be managed.

  12. Owain says:

    Here is an article from the international business times that estimates that the stimulus cost the government, on average, $117,933 per job to create. In Utah, the cost per job was $173,000. That is $173,000 that I am sure could have been far better spent in the private sector.
    http://www.ibtimes.com/contents/20100205/what-cost-per-stimulus-job.htm

    Heaven defend us from reliance on the US goverment for job creation.

  13. Charles Trentelman says:

    taxes and deficits go hand in hand, owain — can’t have one without too little of the other.

    your fallacy, owain, is assuming that that trillion dollars exists and that taking it out of the government budget means it will be available somewhere else to provide jobs.

    in point of fact, all that money is borrowed. It exists only as debt. Cutting it out of the federal budget will not free up one red cent of private revenue and will, meanwhile, remove about $4 trillion in economy activity from the total economy.

    It is that economy activity where the real job creation occures — that’s the point behind stimulus plans — to get the cascade effect operating to generate jobs that, everyone hopes, will be self-sustaining. This is why easing up on stimulus programs is so dicey. The timing is knife-edge.

    but I appreciate you admitting that Mr. Phillips was, as I said, misstating facts. Your apology is accepted.

  14. Dovie says:

    That’s the Dobson / Palin connection. Palin was the keynote speaker at the Tea Party convention. Watch it on Youtube.

    Incidentally, I like John McCain (2000 better than 2004). Palin killed him. And the Religious Right is doing the same thing to Romney – I also liked the “original” version of him.

    Utah politics are gerrymandered & structured so that an extreme group within the Republican party might very well win. Hard to feel sorry for them.

    I do not believe it will be widespread. Fox news never predicted Obama would win, did they? And why are we still talking about Palin like she’s a player? How many times do they have to be wrong before we figure out that they do not represent public opinion at large?

    .

  15. Dovie says:

    I also don’t understand why the LDS are so under the fundamentalist spell – read down. Mormons do not meet evangelical criteria for prayer day, just like Muslims.

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_15025835

    , the Prayer Day’s main organizers, insist that all those who publicly pray and speak at their services adhere to so-called “Judeo-Christian” theological tenets. They are required to sign a faith statement that they believe “the Holy Bible is the inerrant Word of the Living God” and that salvation comes solely through Jesus Christ.

    That carefully worded declaration excludes Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims as well as other Christians and members of Utah’s dominant faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    It also has prompted non-evangelicals to host their own Prayer Day services, opening participation to every person of faith. These past events have featured an LDS apostle,

  16. Owain says:

    Take a look at Greece to see how well borrowing works to prop up an economy. If you’d like an example closer at home, try California. A good working definition of insanity is trying the same thing time after time, and expecting different results.

    Think of it this way. I don’t make over $250,000 per year, but I do pay a sizable chunk, thousands of dollars, in Federal taxes. Every dollar the Government takes is one less dollar I can spend locally, which generates jobs LOCALLY. Those are dollars I am not spending at restaraunts locally, hardware stores locally, gift shops locally, gardent stores locally, department stores locally, health care locally, automotive maintenance locally, etc, etc, etc, and yes, even local newspapers. I can’t spend that money locally where it will generate jobs locally because it’s sucked of the to Federal Government, and for what? If I’m lucky, maybe it will buy an F-35 that will be stationed at HIll. If I’m unlucky, it will go for an Airport named after Rep. John Murtha – follow this link, and then get back to me on how wonderful government spending is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvzNj0Vobss&feature=player_embedded

    If you want to interpret my comments as an apology, go for it. Cheap thrills, I guess. My way of looking at it is, I read your stuff. Be glad of that. Not only that, I am a paying customer when it comes to reading your stuff. You should be REALLY glad of that. As I understand it, that is becoming a scarce commodity in the newspaper business. But when I think you’ve made a boneheaded remark, and this post is among the most boneheaded of remarks out of a vast assortment of boneheaded remarks you have made previously, I’ll be here to call you on it.

    Think of it as a public service.

  17. Dovie says:

    Owain, this answers your question about why I think they are the worst. Politics & religion go hand in hand – anybody who thinks they are increasing truth in politics by inserting religion is nuts.

    This is an article from today – the reason they are the worst is because they are such miserable, hypocritical liars.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fred-karger/james-dobsons-co-founder_b_565570.html

    James Dobson’s Co-Founder Takes Gay Prostitute to Europe

    Another extremely influential anti-gay leader was caught with a male prostitute on their return from a 10 day European Vacation.

    George Alan Rekers, founded the Family Research Council (FRC) with James Dobson in 1993. The FRC is the political arm of Dobson’s more famous operation, Focus on the Family. The FRC is run by leading anti-gay advocate Tony Perkins. …..

    These men of God sure are quick to lie when they get caught.

    Dobson was Ted Haggard’s best friend until his mega-scandal. Now another Dobson crony is busted doing the same thing. Ummm?

  18. Owain says:

    Dovie,

    How is James Dobson connected with the Tea Party movement, smaller government, fiscal responsibility, and responsive government.

    He seems to be a real piece of work, agreed, but I’m missing the connection here concerning his involvement with the people in the movement that Trentelman considers nuts, which is the subject of the thread. I certainly don’t consider Dobson to be a part of the movement. Why should you?

  19. Luke Adams says:

    Charles,

    A few years ago I was a delegate at the state GOP convention. We emailed back and forth over your article about Olene Walker being ousted at the convention. At that time I disagreed with your statements, but the recent ousting of Bob Bennett has made me rethink my prior position. I would love to hear your position, but I was unable to find your email address. I think the GOP just made a huge mistake.

  20. Carl Kove says:

    Owain & Charlie, did you ever think of making a telephone call. That is still one of the best ways to comunicate directly instead of having a argument online.

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